Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[mikeypalone]

I have an opinion on showing any variety of Marans. I had entries in nine APA sanctioned shows. I show blue and silver/blue birchen. I have seen judges that took the time to remove birds from the cage and really look them over,and I have seen some judges that went through the class without opening a single cage. We are supposed to be able to learn from these judges what faults our birds have so as to improve our breeds,not just the Marans. After watching some of these judges work I can say anyone trying to show Marans has a very steep uphill battle,regardless of variety. For those of us who were at Ohio nationals and knows what happened with the black copper it was obvious he did not care about the outcome of his work. There were some Marans that were in the wrong class,these were not a recognized variety so they were judged and as listed and move on. I do not show black copper,but I'm going to start in 2013 and right now I'm not sure what to take,if you go by the S O P I have some nice pullets,but that judge also has to go by that same S O P or I just have chickens. A long uphill battle,but I guess that's why we are in it. Just my opinion.

 

[math ace]

Lisa~ I think Ernie is referring to copper colored ear tufts and just called them red. I could be mistaken but that is how I read it.

I think that too, but I was wondering if the copper tufted birds might have some other traits that work in combination to improve the hackle color of the hens.
The more we hear from others about what they are observing, the more we are discovering that a color or trait in one part of the bird does not work in isolation. There tends to be a coordinating trait somewhere else...

For example, in humans... Short arms and short legs ... Skinny and flat chested women ( now there are exceptions to the rule, lol.... but the norm is what we are talking about).... etc. . .

 

[ashandvine]

LOL....ROFLMAO.... My eyes just roll back in my head when they start talking about the I's and E's of it all. I wish I had better handle on the genetic aspect of breeding. Thank you for sharing what is working for you. I think "Sharing" is the best sign that a breeder is really concerned about the breed.

FWIW I am in a similar boat. XLBoergoats... I hope you post more. I am learning as best I am able. I have also heard that breeding a lighter male to a pullet/hen with dark hackles will help them. I don't read code. Its a goal for this decade to at least understand some.

XLBOERGOATS... could you try to post pics of the birds you have that are winning as well? This post about uphill battles is relevant but I hope its also an isolated disappointment. The birds are recognized so the judges should learn them. Or carry the book IMO. If someone enters a bird in the wrong category that's not the judges issue. I used to compete and judge at home brew competitions. There were people who entered under the wrong labels or categories. We knew it was a mistake and probably just a small hasty one but we couldn't pretend they knew what they were doing because maybe they didn't. As consciencious judges we would judge them as wrong for the standards they were entered in and then give a quick note about the entry so that the person wasn't totally deterred. I hope that's what happened.

What's the word on white ears AND melani()ed pullets? Any way to breed that out in one or two generations?

 

[pinkchick]

Birds with white ear lobes or white ear covert feathers?

Photos? Do you have any of the white ears?


And are asking about over melanized pullets? As in, not enough or very little color in the hackle?

 

[xlboergoats]

I understand what you are talking about when it comes to showing. We have shown and fitted different types of livestock both for ourselves and customers. Judges should know the Standards before they judge any animal. If you buy the latest edition of the APA SOP, Marans are not listed. Black Coppers were not accepted until after the SOP was printed. Wheatens were accepted the following year. I would hope that the judges are learning about newly accepted breeds and varieties as they are accepted. Sometimes, I feel that judges just aren't familiar or very experienced with a particular breed or variety. We focus on the breeds or varieties that we show and they are supposed to know about every variety of every breed. I do not envy them at all, and try hard to respect their opinions. We did have one judge who tried to make a black eyed Black Marans hen Best of Breed last year. Thankfully, there was a more experienced judge working that day to reminded him that Black Marans were not an accepted variety at this time.

It does push me over the edge when I get to a show and start cooping in to see the word "Maran" on a show card. Hopefully one day all show officials will know that it is always "Marans". Wheather it is one bird or a flock, they are "Marans". I also have to remind myself that most of the show officials are not "Marans" breeders.

We have been blessed with having great judges at most of the shows we have shown in. There were some that were far more experienced with the breed than others. We visit with the judges and have always had judges who were more than happy to visit after the show. New breeds are new experiences for them too. We have had judges who told us that they had judged Marans at several shows, but were completely overwhelmed when they started into the Marans and realized that there were over a hundred of them in the show. We are blessed to show in Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Georgia. Most of these shows will have close to or over a hundred Marans entered.

We were sad that we did not get to go to the Ohio Show. It was just too far to travel for us this year. I was surprised to see that there were not anymore Marans entered than what I saw posted. I have no idea what happened with the judging nor who the judge was that judged them. Hopefully, your next experience will be better.

JMO,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

 

[maryhysong]

Hi Ernie! Good to see you over here too. Yes, please do show us some pictures! We are all wanting to learn; maybe you could also point out the areas where you think they need to be improved? I am trying hard to learn what my birds should grow up to look like!

 

[xlboergoats]

FWIW I am in a similar boat. XLBoergoats... I hope you post more. I am learning as best I am able. I have also heard that breeding a lighter male to a pullet/hen with dark hackles will help them. I don't read code. Its a goal for this decade to at least understand some.

XLBOERGOATS... could you try to post pics of the birds you have that are winning as well? This post about uphill battles is relevant but I hope its also an isolated disappointment. The birds are recognized so the judges should learn them. Or carry the book IMO. If someone enters a bird in the wrong category that's not the judges issue. I used to compete and judge at home brew competitions. There were people who entered under the wrong labels or categories. We knew it was a mistake and probably just a small hasty one but we couldn't pretend they knew what they were doing because maybe they didn't. As consciencious judges we would judge them as wrong for the standards they were entered in and then give a quick note about the entry so that the person wasn't totally deterred. I hope that's what happened.

What's the word on white ears AND melani()ed pullets? Any way to breed that out in one or two generations?

An over melanized pullet is a pullet that does not have enough color in her hackles. It can be described genetically, but it is a pullet that seems to be black with little to no hackle color. If we get one with the correct body type, I make sure to pen her with the male that has red (or copper) ear tuffs. Three years ago, it seemed to be tough to get females with copper hackles. We seem to have gotten past that now with the Black Coppers and are working to improve the hackle color in Blue Copper females.

I try to post pictures here from time to time, but can't ever seem to get it done. You can visit our website or email me privately. I will be more than happy to send you pictures of the birds that we are hauling this year. As you probably know, show pictures don't always work well because our birds seem to feel "caged up" when they are caged up. LOL!!

Good Luck,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

 

[mikeypalone]

I do not envy any of the judges,and I am passing along the things that I saw which are wrong. I have met great people along the way and would not trade that. I could tell that some judges cared about the job they did with the Marans and some did not. This was my first year of showing and I needed to learn all I could. Some judges always had a paperback edition of the S O P in their pocket some never had,I think judging in this breed needs to become more uniform so that people like me have somewhere to go for professional opinions.

 

[xlboergoats]

I am going to try to post a few pictures and hope that it works. Maybe these pictures will give a better understanding to my comments about red or copper ear tuffs in comparison to darker ear tuffs.



This is Louie one of our Blue Copper Cocks, but it clearly shows red or copper ear tuffs. Notice that his ear lobes just below the ear tuffs are red. His eyes look dark in this picture, bue he has correct colored eyes. This picture was taken at the Marans of America Club Nationals a couple of years ago and used in several magazines. Louie was Best of Variety there and fifth overall Best Marans.


This is the cockerel that was Best of Variety, Best of Breed, Best Coninental, and Reserve Champion Large Fowl at the State Fair of Texas 2012. It is difficult to see in this picture, but his ear tuffs are almost black. His ear lobes are red and his eyes are the correct color. There were 128 Marans entered in this show.



This Black Copper Cockerel was Reserve Best of Breed at the Pelican State Show in Louisiana 2012. It is not easy to see, but his ear tuffs are red or copper. One of our Black Copper pullets beat him for Best of Breed. A beautiful Wheaten pullet owned by Peggy Taylor was Reserve Best of Breed.

Regards,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

 

[xlboergoats]

I do not envy any of the judges,and I am passing along the things that I saw which are wrong. I have met great people along the way and would not trade that. I could tell that some judges cared about the job they did with the Marans and some did not. This was my first year of showing and I needed to learn all I could. Some judges always had a paperback edition of the S O P in their pocket some never had,I think judging in this breed needs to become more uniform so that people like me have somewhere to go for professional opinions.

I agree with you completely all judges should take their jobs seriously. Some breeder or exhibitor is exhibiting what they feel is the best examples of his/her breeding program. All of the judges that we have had to this point have been great to visit with about the birds and the way that they were placed. We have had several judges ask us questions concerning the breed and/or varieties. After all, we spend more time with Marans than they do. There are some judges that I always feel relieved to see heading towards the Continental section. Regardless to where we place, I know that these judges work with our class often and are more experienced with our Standards. On the ones that we have not seen judge, I take a "wait and see" approach to it. Sometimes it is clear to see that they are not familiar with our breed within a few classes. If that is the case, we just take it like it comes, smile, and enjoy visiting with our show friends until it is over.

We always try to work with other breeders to improve what we have. We are blessed to live and show in an area with other breeders who are dedicated to improving the breed not just winning a particular show. We all share eggs and birds with each other. If someone needs something that one of the others has, we switch, swap, sell, trade, or work out some deal to make it happen. We are pleased with our birds and what we are accomplishing. We know that if it weren't for other breeders helping us along the way, we would be fighting an uphill battle. We always try to help other breeders when they ask for advise or help with their breeding programs. When we get home from a show ribbons are piled in a stack on an office desk to soon be forgotten, but friends last forever.


Regards,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www,Marans2XL.com