Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[DMRippy]

Quote: You also have to make sure the pics are taken in a NATURAL stance.... not when they are on alert or something.

 

[Wynette]

Folks, here is the male conformation sketch (this sketch was updated late last fall, and more details were added; however, sometimes it helps to look at a very basic sketch to see the type of the bird better):



Note the length of the back, and specifically, the ANGLE of the back. I've been speaking with several longtime Marans breeders, and most are in agreement with me that we are not seeing the proper topline (back) on our birds. This plays right into squirrel tail; visualize if the back is flatter (as many are when you scroll through and look at the pics posted) - a flat back will allow that tail to be at a much higher angle than what we are looking for.

In talking about the angle of the back (and many who know me know this is a sticking point for me...we all have our "things" and this is one of them for me) - the back should be flat - NOT a "U" shape.

Also, the shank color of the black copper should be slate over pink; it's a bit difficult to tell for certain in the bird being discussed, but it "appears" to be to have the correct shank color. However, the amount of copper in the breast is a deal breaker (at least for me it would be).

 

[Ripster]

Wynette as usual you are right on the money on all counts, and thanks for posting the diagram again, it's something we need to keep in our minds eye when evaluating birds.

 

[Wynette]

Wynette as usual you are right on the money on all counts, and thanks for posting the diagram again, it's something we need to keep in our minds eye when evaluating birds.

Thanks, Ripster - sheesh, I juste noticed I wrote to note the angle....and the angle...of the back. HA! I've corrected it to read "LENGTH and angle."

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

Folks, here is the male conformation sketch (this sketch was updated late last fall, and more details were added; however, sometimes it helps to look at a very basic sketch to see the type of the bird better):



Note the length of the back, and specifically, the ANGLE of the back. I've been speaking with several longtime Marans breeders, and most are in agreement with me that we are not seeing the proper topline (back) on our birds. This plays right into squirrel tail; visualize if the back is flatter (as many are when you scroll through and look at the pics posted) - a flat back will allow that tail to be at a much higher angle than what we are looking for.

In talking about the angle of the back (and many who know me know this is a sticking point for me...we all have our "things" and this is one of them for me) - the back should be flat - NOT a "U" shape.

Also, the shank color of the black copper should be slate over pink; it's a bit difficult to tell for certain in the bird being discussed, but it "appears" to be to have the correct shank color. However, the amount of copper in the breast is a deal breaker (at least for me it would be).

With this information, I am seeing the BCM photo I posted as a "very high tail angle" as opposed to a squirrel tail. Other opinions? As to flat and "uphill" backlines, as birds mature the saddle feathers fluff up the backline in back...while they may appear U-shaped, the actual skin of the bird is not but rather I see an optical effect only. You have to get your hands on the birds. I had a long discussion with a Langshans breeder, as they are one of the breeds heavily used in the making of Marans. His young bird photos had straight backs and I questioned the toplines on more mature birds. He said basically what I just did, that it is feathering. When I handle my own birds, I see that he is correct. This is a VERY useful discussion, and I thank Ripster, Wynette, and DMRippy for your input.

 

[Ripster]

With this information, I am seeing the BCM photo I posted as a "very high tail angle" as opposed to a squirrel tail. Other opinions? As to flat and "uphill" backlines, as birds mature the saddle feathers fluff up the backline in back...while they may appear U-shaped, the actual skin of the bird is not but rather I see an optical effect only. You have to get your hands on the birds. I had a long discussion with a Langshans breeder, as they are one of the breeds heavily used in the making of Marans. His young bird photos had straight backs and I questioned the toplines on more mature birds. He said basically what I just did, that it is feathering. When I handle my own birds, I see that he is correct. This is a VERY useful discussion, and I thank Ripster, Wynette, and DMRippy for your input.

Ihilani,

One of the problems I'm seeing the Marans as I attend shows is the problem with toplines in our birds. As a matter of fact this topic just got started on the MCCUSA Forum this afternoon. I see it in all color varieties from time to time but some varieties seem to have issues more than others. Plus it seems more noticeable in females than males. I think many are related to the length and width of back (too short and too narrow) this can also bring about other issues too. U shaped backs are a problem in some varieties, especially the whites. Some have speculated that this is due to White Langshans being used to help create them. While I certainly can't vouch for this information, that's what their backs remind me of...Langshans.

I think as breeders we have to keep the whole bird in mind when we select birds for a show or the breeding pens. Sometimes this can be hard to do, especially if we're trying to fix another problem or two. As Wynette said it is sometimes best to look at an outline of Marans when evaluating for type...it's much less confusing to the mind. Even a black and white image will work since the colors of a bird aren't tricking our eyes so to speak.

 

[Wynette]

As to flat and "uphill" backlines, as birds mature the saddle feathers fluff up the backline in back...while they may appear U-shaped, the actual skin of the bird is not but rather I see an optical effect only.

I don't find this to be true at all - not with the Marans that I have bred, anyway. Her'es a quick example (only thing I could quickly find): This is the same bird - here, at about 24 weeks (note the angle of his back, which is IMO perfect, and the length of back - again, VERY nice):



Here is the same male at about 2 yrs. old (note that he's standing directly under a 75watt light bulb which makes it appear that he's got a halo on his hackles, but he does not). No "U" shape to the back at all - nice & flat, with the appropriate angle, just as he was as a youngster. (I seriously hate that long sickle feather):



Of course, this is just my own, personal experience. OH - 2nd pic, also note the hen standing in front of the male - see that nice, open tail? Although she's far from perfect, she's got a nice tail on her, and a nice, wide body.

Another thing I've noticed is that we're seeing an awful lot of loose feathering - more loose than it ought to be. We're not wanting Orpington-looking birds, they should be a bit more tightly feathered than many seem to be. Think along the lines of good Plymouth Rock feathering - they shouldn't be excessively "fluffy" in the back end or upper thigh areas.

 

[Wynette]

Ihilani,

One of the problems I'm seeing the Marans as I attend shows is the problem with toplines in our birds. As a matter of fact this topic just got started on the MCCUSA Forum this afternoon. I see it in all color varieties from time to time but some varieties seem to have issues more than others. Plus it seems more noticeable in females than males. I think many are related to the length and width of back (too short and too narrow) this can also bring about other issues too. U shaped backs are a problem in some varieties, especially the whites. Some have speculated that this is due to White Langshans being used to help create them. While I certainly can't vouch for this information, that's what their backs remind me of...Langshans.

I think as breeders we have to keep the whole bird in mind when we select birds for a show or the breeding pens. Sometimes this can be hard to do, especially if we're trying to fix another problem or two. As Wynette said it is sometimes best to look at an outline of Marans when evaluating for type...it's much less confusing to the mind. Even a black and white image will work since the colors of a bird aren't tricking our eyes so to speak.

Ripster, you were typing at the same time I was. YES! I wholeheartedly agree on the whole topline issue. Again, I know it's a "sticking point" for me - it just drives me crazy. Everyone has their "thing" I guess. We've got a long way to go, but I'm loving this discussion here. It's not to put anyone's birds down, so please, please - don't anyone take offense. My birds are FAR from perfect, and I use them as examples of good AND bad as much as I can. Again, GREAT discussion!

 

[Ripster]

Wynette that's a very nice male bird you posted about the only negative I see is that I would like to see his tail just a tad bit lower. But with that said, let me know when you won't be home and I drive up from Florida and spirit him away in the dead of the night. Oh, well after the spring thaw please. lol

The female you pointed out does indeed have a nicely spread tail. Tails like that go hand in hand with wide backs. Narrow backed birds tend to have pinched tails. I just might snag her when I get the male. lol Good job on both birds!

 

[GaryDean26]

In talking about the angle of the back (and many who know me know this is a sticking point for me...we all have our "things" and this is one of them for me) - the back should be flat - NOT a "U" shape.

Wynette,

It is not a you thing. It is a Marans thing. Yes you are absolutely right the concave or dish shaped back is NOT what the standard means when it says downward sloping. It means the flat back that you describe.