Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Mamaperreca]

ITs all very interesting. SO here is a questions about identifying chicks as Roo or Pullet. I was told by a Marans person that she noticed the Roos grew their tail feathers later or slower than the Hens. This would be as VERY young chicks just getting the first tail feathers. I have my 5 chicks in the brooder right now and I am definitely watching to see if this "wives tale" holds true. I am also going to write down the amount of white on each chick compared to Roo/Hen outcome that Geebs has been talking about.

So tail feather growth anyone?

 

[Wynette]

Quote:
Yes, tail feathers on pullets grow more quickly.

 

[Mamaperreca]

Sweet, Wynette. Thanks.

I got some tail feathers on at least 1 bird so far.

Maybe my all Roo chick buying streak is over. LOL!

 

[Wynette]

Oh, been there, done that. I'm a most excellent ROO HATCHER!

 

[VillageChicken]

My two cents for free.
The more I learn about poultry breeding, the more I realize that poultry bred for show does quite often require separate breeding strategies for hens and roosters. This has been the case for decades with most of the breeds where hens and roos are not the same color.

I think what has happened with Marans is that folks who did not originally keep poultry have become interested in breeds such as Marans and Ameraucana because of their unique qualities, namely the eggs. This also coincided with a resurgence of interest in backyard poultry keeping. This is great for the popularity of the breed, but a nightmare for serious breeders who are out the protect the genetic integrity of their breed. Just spend a few minutes on the Ameraucana thread, and you'll see folks rushing to tell people their bird is an EE and not an Ameraucana. I think it's because they are passionate about their breed and the work they have done to improve it against the standard. At first it seemed rude... now I understand their motivation a bit better.

The BCM in the U.S. is one of the very latest popular varieties, that I am aware of. I think that those who helped introduce it have done a great job of reconstructing it from a rather small gene pool. Of course that has its drawbacks and that is why, early in the process, we are still filtering through the genetic soup. Marans are unique in that the popularity of the egg color promotes less than careful breeding practices, and the process of finding genetic stability takes much longer. It seems other countries are also struggling to figure this out, or at least have created a strategy based on their knowledge of what works. But again it is a process everywhere.

I agree that the standard should create a reasonable target, something at least genetically practical. That being said, if the BC Marans standard ends up requiring double mating to show both hens and roosters, then that just increases the challenge especially if the dark egg is to be maintained. I know of no other breed that has an egg standard like Marans. Even Ameraucana can lay non-blue eggs and still be called Ameraucana (I think it can be green). But Americans like a good challenge, so I'm sure someone will figure it all out.

I have yet to find a proven source for the genotype of standard-meeting Black Copper hens and roosters. I suspect they are not the same. I don't know that one can test breed to determine which recessive melanizers are involved, or whether hens or roos or both are heterozygous for melanotic or mahogany. But in some of the much older breeds, somehow they figured it out without the advanced knowledge of genetics we have today. It just took time. Time that folks have not yet spent on the Black Copper Marans to determine what works consistently. We want instant gratification, a proven formula today. I understand, it's less frustrating, cheaper, and you reap rewards of your hard work much sooner. Not all of us can spend thousands of dollars on hatching eggs each year, and none of us wants to cull hundreds of birds each year. So it will take time, and as we figure it all out, we have great tools like this forum that 20 years ago did not exist.

I do think that if we deviate from the French standard, we throw out decades of their breeding experience by aiming at a different target. I have learned a lot from the time I have spent on this forum. I have had many questions answered, and found elsewhere, answers to questions that I had as a result of things I read on this forum. I would not have been challenged to dig deeper if the learning process were that simple. So for the times I have spoken in ignorance, please forgive me, I will probably still do it again. But for those who are lurking and just want to learn more, don't be afraid to join the quest. You may not have great resources of money and space, but you can always increase your knowledge, and the wealth of online friends here on BYC!

 

[VillageChicken]

Casey, UK does have feathered shank BC Marans. I hatched out a few in October. I'll post pics as soon as they learn not to be afraid of the snow!

 

[geebs]

Villagechicken: You are cool!!

So eloquent... nuff said!!!

 

[Casey76]

Hi ChickenVillage. You can get feather-shanked Marans in the UK. I have a couple of friends who breed them: however they cannot be shown at PCGB shows, as feathering on the legs is considered a fault.

Usually these are stipulated as "French" Marans, rather than just Marans

 

[Wynette]

Ditto that, geebs - very well spoken, and easily understood. I thank you for that.

I completely agree, and those of us who are not as learned in genetics (though we are working at it!

) most definitely use phenotype...and I have to say that in my "experiments" of breeding over several years now, I have learned a lot just in what I have hatched and mated. I do not have the facility to hatch 1,000 chicks per year and just throw 75% of them out if a tiny thing doens't look right....I watch them grow and mature, and THEN make decisions. Not saying that's the right way, but in watching them grow & develop, and doing 'test mating' - I have a background that will SO help me in my quest to learn as much as I can about the genetics that made up what I have in my pens. I cannot tell you how many "light bulb" moments I have had in the last year, that I can relate back to a real world example in my own back yard!

 

[onthespot]

Thanks so much Chicken Village. What he said.