Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[marquisella]

Quote:
Thanks Don!

I've wondered why the proposed standard for the Blue Coppers was the only variety to be allowed 2 white feathers on the bird, do you know why this is? (I know you said that it will probably change but am curious as to why it states it is okay for now in the proposed)

Kim, I for one would like for the MCCUSA to get with the program and update the proposed standards for the other colors that are on the verge of having a qualifying meet come up in the near future. Nothing has been done to any of them except the BC Marans and that wasn't done until just before the meet.

What is going to happen if for say the Blue Copper was allowed to have white in wing and tail and they are back crossed to the BC for color. If you put any of the BC back into your Pure BC you are introducing the white feather back into the pure BC and opening up another can of worms. This is one reason I am against using these BC from the Blue Copper mating back with the pure BC.

The reason for the white feather to be in the Blue Copper proposed standard is because the person that originally drew up the proposed Blue Standard didn't really know what they were doing in my opinion. Don

I don't know who wrote that blue copper standard, and obviously it needs revison, but I disagree with you that any white feathers on any breed is a dq. I looked up several and here they are:

black Wyandotte DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage, except one inch or less of white in undercolor of hackles and saddles of cocks, two or more feathers edged or tipped with positive white".


black Java DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage; two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


Rhode Island white DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


Buckeye DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


black Jersey giant DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white showing on surface, or two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


I talked to someone who was at the show who spoke with the judge, who is also an ex president of the APA and he said, that white is of course undesireable, but really difficult to get bred out and so they do not DQ them. He said a touch of white somewhere is to be expected especially with a developing breed. It's not that it's technically "OK", just that it's not a DQ in the APA. My personal advice to anyone breeding Marans would be, not to use a bird that has white when it should not have. It doesn't take long to get it out, and will get you further ahead in the long run.

I'm not on the standards committee, but as they go through the varieties, there will be revisions to what is already there. They are trying their best to get the standards as close to the French Standard as possible using the APA wording and recommendations to guide them.

My advise to anyone who is interested in having a say in how these standards are written, join the MCCUSA because the membership votes on the recommended standards before they are presented to the APA. There is a standards committee working on the Wheatens right now. They will finalize their recommendations, and present it to the membership.
And if, like when they presented the Black Copper standard, if someone has an issue with it, they will take in under advisement. Then the final standard is presented to the membership, and a vote is taken. After that, if it passes, that will be the standard given to the APA Standards committe for their approval.

I hope this give everyone an idea of how this works. If you have questions, feel free to contact me.
Sue

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Kim, I for one would like for the MCCUSA to get with the program and update the proposed standards for the other colors that are on the verge of having a qualifying meet come up in the near future. Nothing has been done to any of them except the BC Marans and that wasn't done until just before the meet.

What is going to happen if for say the Blue Copper was allowed to have white in wing and tail and they are back crossed to the BC for color. If you put any of the BC back into your Pure BC you are introducing the white feather back into the pure BC and opening up another can of worms. This is one reason I am against using these BC from the Blue Copper mating back with the pure BC.

The reason for the white feather to be in the Blue Copper proposed standard is because the person that originally drew up the proposed Blue Standard didn't really know what they were doing in my opinion. Don

I don't know who wrote that blue copper standard, and obviously it needs revison, but I disagree with you that any white feathers on any breed is a dq. I looked up several and here they are:

black Wyandotte DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage, except one inch or less of white in undercolor of hackles and saddles of cocks, two or more feathers edged or tipped with positive white".


black Java DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage; two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


Rhode Island white DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


Buckeye DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


black Jersey giant DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white showing on surface, or two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


I talked to someone who was at the show who spoke with the judge, who is also an ex president of the APA and he said, that white is of course undesireable, but really difficult to get bred out and so they do not DQ them. He said a touch of white somewhere is to be expected especially with a developing breed. It's not that it's technically "OK", just that it's not a DQ in the APA. My personal advice to anyone breeding Marans would be, not to use a bird that has white when it should not have. It doesn't take long to get it out, and will get you further ahead in the long run.

I'm not on the standards committee, but as they go through the varieties, there will be revisions to what is already there. They are trying their best to get the standards as close to the French Standard as possible using the APA wording and recommendations to guide them.

My advise to anyone who is interested in having a say in how these standards are written, join the MCCUSA because the membership votes on the recommended standards before they are presented to the APA. There is a standards committee working on the Wheatens right now. They will finalize their recommendations, and present it to the membership.
And if, like when they presented the Black Copper standard, if someone has an issue with it, they will take in under advisement. Then the final standard is presented to the membership, and a vote is taken. After that, if it passes, that will be the standard given to the APA Standards committe for their approval.

I hope this give everyone an idea of how this works. If you have questions, feel free to contact me.
Sue

I think we are talking about two different things. I am talking about entire feathers being a DQ, partial white feathers are a fault. The Judge was very wrong if he said that solid white feathers were acceptable in the Marans because they are a new breed. A DQ is A DQ regardless of new or old. Walt Leonard took this question to the Shawnee APA national meet and ask the other committee members for clarification. White in wing and tail feathers a DQ and white undercolor under the hackle a Fault.

Sue, I have been in show poultry for over 50 years and for years I showed 100 or more birds at some of the shows. Some of the judge will let stuff slide but sooner or later you will run into one that knows what they are doing and they will use the DQ. Really the only thing I can say it is easier in the long run not to use these Marans with the DQ even if they still win. I am only interested in improving the Breed. Don

 

[snowbird]

Sue, the Buckeye and rhode White would be DQ with what you stated, Don

 

[marquisella]

Quote:
I don't know who wrote that blue copper standard, and obviously it needs revison, but I disagree with you that any white feathers on any breed is a dq. I looked up several and here they are:

black Wyandotte DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage, except one inch or less of white in undercolor of hackles and saddles of cocks, two or more feathers edged or tipped with positive white".


black Java DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage; two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


Rhode Island white DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


Buckeye DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


black Jersey giant DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white showing on surface, or two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


I talked to someone who was at the show who spoke with the judge, who is also an ex president of the APA and he said, that white is of course undesireable, but really difficult to get bred out and so they do not DQ them. He said a touch of white somewhere is to be expected especially with a developing breed. It's not that it's technically "OK", just that it's not a DQ in the APA. My personal advice to anyone breeding Marans would be, not to use a bird that has white when it should not have. It doesn't take long to get it out, and will get you further ahead in the long run.

I'm not on the standards committee, but as they go through the varieties, there will be revisions to what is already there. They are trying their best to get the standards as close to the French Standard as possible using the APA wording and recommendations to guide them.

My advise to anyone who is interested in having a say in how these standards are written, join the MCCUSA because the membership votes on the recommended standards before they are presented to the APA. There is a standards committee working on the Wheatens right now. They will finalize their recommendations, and present it to the membership.
And if, like when they presented the Black Copper standard, if someone has an issue with it, they will take in under advisement. Then the final standard is presented to the membership, and a vote is taken. After that, if it passes, that will be the standard given to the APA Standards committe for their approval.

I hope this give everyone an idea of how this works. If you have questions, feel free to contact me.
Sue

I think we are talking about two different things. I am talking about entire feathers being a DQ, partial white feathers are a fault. The Judge was very wrong if he said that solid white feathers were acceptable in the Marans because they are a new breed. A DQ is A DQ regardless of new or old. Walt Leonard took this question to the Shawnee APA national meet and ask the other committee members for clarification. White in wing and tail feathers a DQ and white undercolor under the hackle a Fault.

Sue, I have been in show poultry for over 50 years and for years I showed 100 or more birds at some of the shows. Some of the judge will let stuff slide but sooner or later you will run into one that knows what they are doing and they will use the DQ. Really the only thing I can say it is easier in the long run not to use these Marans with the DQ even if they still win. I am only interested in improving the Breed. Don

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the white is ok, I'm just saying that in some breeds white is not a dq. The standards committee is reviewing each variety one by one, they will get to the blue eventually. My gut feeling is white won't be allowed, but that is my opinion.

The more people that get involved with ideas, etc. the better.
Sue

 

[snowbird]

Sue, Is there any way that the proposed standards for the next three varietys of Marans that will try for acceptance could be speed up so breeders would know what was going to be acceptable. people are breeding to these rough drafts thinking that is the final Standard.

The length of time it took to get the BC Marans proposed standard straightened out is just not acceptable to serious breeders with the changes that were being made right up until show day.

I am sure you see the mixed up garbage that is coming on the forum lately and the owners think they have show champions.

Thats all from me for a while. Don

 

[marquisella]

Quote:
The Wheaten is almost finished I hear. After that I think it will be White, which will be easy, cuckoo, and then blue.

Its hard to have a committee that spans the US get together for conference calls tohash it all out.

I can understand your frustration. I think it helps when people publish photos for others to critique, if they critique correctly, and don't worry about feelings.

There are some people here that can give good opinions. I think it helps in the long run to honestly say what it wrong with a bird, you don't do anyone any favors by sugar coating something that is wrong, it only gives the impression that its still ok. And, it depends on what someone wants to do with their birds, although, its been my experience, that people start out saying they only want back yard birds, or just for the egg color, and then you see them at a show with the birds....so its hard to know.

Sue

 

[BevDavis]

Quote:
Kim, I for one would like for the MCCUSA to get with the program and update the proposed standards for the other colors that are on the verge of having a qualifying meet come up in the near future. Nothing has been done to any of them except the BC Marans and that wasn't done until just before the meet.

What is going to happen if for say the Blue Copper was allowed to have white in wing and tail and they are back crossed to the BC for color. If you put any of the BC back into your Pure BC you are introducing the white feather back into the pure BC and opening up another can of worms. This is one reason I am against using these BC from the Blue Copper mating back with the pure BC.

The reason for the white feather to be in the Blue Copper proposed standard is because the person that originally drew up the proposed Blue Standard didn't really know what they were doing in my opinion. Don

I don't know who wrote that blue copper standard, and obviously it needs revison, but I disagree with you that any white feathers on any breed is a dq. I looked up several and here they are:

black Wyandotte DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage, except one inch or less of white in undercolor of hackles and saddles of cocks, two or more feathers edged or tipped with positive white".


black Java DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage; two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


Rhode Island white DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


Buckeye DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


black Jersey giant DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white showing on surface, or two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


I talked to someone who was at the show who spoke with the judge, who is also an ex president of the APA and he said, that white is of course undesireable, but really difficult to get bred out and so they do not DQ them. He said a touch of white somewhere is to be expected especially with a developing breed. It's not that it's technically "OK", just that it's not a DQ in the APA. My personal advice to anyone breeding Marans would be, not to use a bird that has white when it should not have. It doesn't take long to get it out, and will get you further ahead in the long run.

I'm not on the standards committee, but as they go through the varieties, there will be revisions to what is already there. They are trying their best to get the standards as close to the French Standard as possible using the APA wording and recommendations to guide them.

My advise to anyone who is interested in having a say in how these standards are written, join the MCCUSA because the membership votes on the recommended standards before they are presented to the APA. There is a standards committee working on the Wheatens right now. They will finalize their recommendations, and present it to the membership.
And if, like when they presented the Black Copper standard, if someone has an issue with it, they will take in under advisement. Then the final standard is presented to the membership, and a vote is taken. After that, if it passes, that will be the standard given to the APA Standards committe for their approval.

I hope this give everyone an idea of how this works. If you have questions, feel free to contact me.
Sue

Hi

The French Club was contacted about the under color of the Marans and in France both white and gray is acceptable. There isn't anything in the standard that mentions the under color.

The Blue gene is a leaky gene and sometime white will show through.

The standards committee are going through the standards of all the Marans colors but it takes time and a lot of discussion is required. We are trying to work to the French standard but at the same time have to put it in the terms the APA require. It's very hard discribing a particular color that fits the French standard, the APA terms and the color of the bird. If you are unsure of what to breed for then follow the French standard because that is what our standard is trying to copy.

Bev

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:

You meant RI red right?
punky

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:
I don't know who wrote that blue copper standard, and obviously it needs revison, but I disagree with you that any white feathers on any breed is a dq. I looked up several and here they are:

black Wyandotte DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage, except one inch or less of white in undercolor of hackles and saddles of cocks, two or more feathers edged or tipped with positive white".


black Java DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white in any part of plumage; two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


Rhode Island white DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


Buckeye DQs -- "One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage."


black Jersey giant DQs -- "More than one-half inch of positive white showing on surface, or two or more feathers tipped or edged with positive white."


I talked to someone who was at the show who spoke with the judge, who is also an ex president of the APA and he said, that white is of course undesireable, but really difficult to get bred out and so they do not DQ them. He said a touch of white somewhere is to be expected especially with a developing breed. It's not that it's technically "OK", just that it's not a DQ in the APA. My personal advice to anyone breeding Marans would be, not to use a bird that has white when it should not have. It doesn't take long to get it out, and will get you further ahead in the long run.

I'm not on the standards committee, but as they go through the varieties, there will be revisions to what is already there. They are trying their best to get the standards as close to the French Standard as possible using the APA wording and recommendations to guide them.

My advise to anyone who is interested in having a say in how these standards are written, join the MCCUSA because the membership votes on the recommended standards before they are presented to the APA. There is a standards committee working on the Wheatens right now. They will finalize their recommendations, and present it to the membership.
And if, like when they presented the Black Copper standard, if someone has an issue with it, they will take in under advisement. Then the final standard is presented to the membership, and a vote is taken. After that, if it passes, that will be the standard given to the APA Standards committe for their approval.

I hope this give everyone an idea of how this works. If you have questions, feel free to contact me.
Sue

Hi

The French Club was contacted about the under color of the Marans and in France both white and gray is acceptable. There isn't anything in the standard that mentions the under color.

The Blue gene is a leaky gene and sometime white will show through.

The standards committee are going through the standards of all the Marans colors but it takes time and a lot of discussion is required. We are trying to work to the French standard but at the same time have to put it in the terms the APA require. It's very hard discribing a particular color that fits the French standard, the APA terms and the color of the bird. If you are unsure of what to breed for then follow the French standard because that is what our standard is trying to copy.

Bev

Hi Bev! Thanks for commenting on this! Sue and Don...thank you both for opening up this conversation in such a nice, open and friendly way, hopefully it will spark continued discussing and more will comment as well.

Bev~ So, understanding that Blue is a leaking gene, then the 2 white feathers that are mentioned now in the current posted proposed color standard draft for the Blue Copper will remain acceptable in the future? Even upon acceptance?
Thank you!

 

[BevDavis]

Quote:
I think we are talking about two different things. I am talking about entire feathers being a DQ, partial white feathers are a fault. The Judge was very wrong if he said that solid white feathers were acceptable in the Marans because they are a new breed. A DQ is A DQ regardless of new or old. Walt Leonard took this question to the Shawnee APA national meet and ask the other committee members for clarification. White in wing and tail feathers a DQ and white undercolor under the hackle a Fault.

Sue, I have been in show poultry for over 50 years and for years I showed 100 or more birds at some of the shows. Some of the judge will let stuff slide but sooner or later you will run into one that knows what they are doing and they will use the DQ. Really the only thing I can say it is easier in the long run not to use these Marans with the DQ even if they still win. I am only interested in improving the Breed. Don

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the white is ok, I'm just saying that in some breeds white is not a dq. The standards committee is reviewing each variety one by one, they will get to the blue eventually. My gut feeling is white won't be allowed, but that is my opinion.

The more people that get involved with ideas, etc. the better.
Sue

Don

It is very rude criticize the judge. The judge we had is a very respected judge not only by the APA but by the poultry community as a whole.

Bev