Black thumb!!! (Trying to garden in Arizona)

[TreesAndBrees]

Hey everyone,

I've always tried to garden in Arizona (now I live in Miami, AZ which is at 3400 ft elevation and is generally much cooler than the lower desert). Starting from seed never works, they may germinate but as soon as I put them outside they shrivel up and die. Starting from nursery plants works for at most a couple of weeks, and then the plant keels over and dies, whether it's been transplanted outside (in the transplant-shock-proof containers) or still indoors. I've planted 2 fruit trees this spring, one of which seems okay for now, the other's leaves are drying up and getting crispy.

Even sprouting seeds- they are fine for day one, and then from then on they get moldy and infested in fruit flies. I wanted to grow fodder for my 18 chickens, but it just turns moldy, so I toss it in the compost.

Potatoes once in a while sprout up in my compost piles, but never actually grow more potatoes. It only ever keeps the original potato it grew from!

Am I doing something wrong?? Do I have a black thumb?? Do I need more shade? I feel like I water the plants enough, I doubt I water them too much, I water them in the morning to prevent the sun from frying the leaves during the day from the magnification of the water droplets. I've only had minimal luck growing plants in my unfinished compost piles; anywhere else and the plant just dies almost immediately.

There are about 10 pomegranate trees and 1 quince tree that were already on my property when I bought it, and they do fine without any maintenance, except the fruits crack open before they are ripe (I think that's from inconsistent watering).

Any tips from fellow desert gardeners would be so much appreciated! I need to grow some nice greens for my chickens and myself!

(I need to try to grow some banana trees, too- my chickens go bananas for bananas!)

 

[K9Dave]

Hello from Phoenix. I'm having somewhat of a black thumb as well but I'm blaming it on the soil I was given. (Rental). They say squash loves a lot of sun but I proved that wrong I think cause mine started getting crispy. I hope you get alof of help on here so I can follow.

 

[Demosthine]

I'll start out with the pomegranate trees first, since that's the easiest to explain. They need long, deep, consistent watering in order to thrive. Remember, they are not native to Arizona and require a very different type of treatment than what you would expect here. The fruits cracking open is definitely a watering problem. Pomegranates very quickly absorb water and immediately rush it to the fruits during periods of drought. If you maintain that long, deep watering, this won't be an issue. If you go a longer than normal period without watering, start out watering very lightly and then increase it slightly each day. You really have to allow the to adjust gradually.

With everything else, you need to make sure you deep water, especially. The general rule is to do a slow drip that soaks the ground enough to push a straightened metal clothes hanger about 8" deep without much of an issue. My hibiscus tree did phenomenal with a thorough soaking once a week. It was over 8' tall when I moved out of that house. The heat and direct sunlight in here makes daily, shallow watering a catastrophe in the making. The first couple of inches can dry out very quickly.

Also, you need to make sure the ground is very thoroughly balanced. For my grass, I put dried but not composted horse manure all across my lawn. In addition to the chicken manure, it has absolutely thrived to the point of cutting it every several days, while watering (backwashing my pool filter) every two weeks. For my garden, I took that dried horse manure and made a good sized pile on my side yard. Periodically, I would water and turn it. In about three months, it was well on it's way to full compost material. I mixed it in with the native soil and we planted broccoli, cauliflower, and various lettuce. They all absolutely thrived when my wife didn't neglect watering them. Here in Arizona, you'll need a much higher organic content. Taking the horse manure along with whatever bedding, always found on Craig's List, and mixing it about 50/50 with the native soil has been my secret so far.

You should never be watering from above ground level. Try to keep the water completely off the leaves and you'll have healthier plants. Always use a flood-irrigation type watering method. If you are concerned about evaporation, add a layer of hay or straw (mulch) that is several inches thick across your garden. That will help prevent evaporation, as well as helping to prevent weeds from growing.

Another thing I would recommend is buying locally harvested seeds that are designed for our environment. Check out the Native Seeds website. They have a huge variety that are especially breed for growing in our horrible soil and drought conditions. Based out of Tucson, they have collected heritage seeds from many of the founders of our state, as well as the Native Americans. It's the best way to buy seeds and it's far more conducive to growing here.

Hope that helps. I'm sure more advice will come along, too.

 

[TreesAndBrees]

Thank you, Demosthine- very helpful! I suppose the issue, then, is that I live without plumbing, so I haven't been able to deep water, only shallow watering. Our house is 100 years old, and the plumbing has leaks in inaccessible locations, so we keep the plumbing off because the leaks cause our bill to be very expensive and may, in fact, cause our house to fall down!

But thank you, I will definitely give everything you suggested a try, and haul more water in. I appreciate your response!

 

[Demosthine]

Thank you, Demosthine- very helpful! I suppose the issue, then, is that I live without plumbing, so I haven't been able to deep water, only shallow watering. Our house is 100 years old, and the plumbing has leaks in inaccessible locations, so we keep the plumbing off because the leaks cause our bill to be very expensive and may, in fact, cause our house to fall down!

But thank you, I will definitely give everything you suggested a try, and haul more water in. I appreciate your response!

Well, then there are several other things I can recommend to that end. Firstly, find the location outside of the house where the main water line ties in to the house. Tie in a t-coupler that will allow you to put a valve wayward of the coupler in to the house and another valve going out to some external plumbing. This could even be just a regular water spigot if you prefer just using a hose rather than doing actual plumbing. Using this set up, you could have controlled water to the house with the first valve, but still have running water when the house is shut off. I believe this would be far, far less expensive than hauling in water. Also, you can use that same external plumbing to run a line to an outdoors processing station for chickens and rabbits, similar to the photo below. Use a 5- or 6-gallon bucket underneath and drain your water there. Use that to water the plants as well.

​

Another thing is that you can use all of your waste water to fertilize the yard. Even your human toilet waste is usable for these purposes. Check out this article from Mother Earth News titled "You Can Compost Human Waste!" In Lousiana, several of my wife's relatives use septic systems. The system uses an automatic float pump to purge the system of excess water when it rises to a certain level. It is pumped to a built-in sprinkler system and waters their entire yard, including all their plants. If you're dealing with completely screwed up plumbing, it makes this grey water system very, very appealing, I would think. I would absolutely love to do this in the future and will when we build our ranch house.

You'll just have to think outside the box. If you're planning on staying there for any length of time and repairing any of the plumbing at all, it'd be a great time to invest in a more holistic approach to waste management.

 

[TreesAndBrees]

Well, then there are several other things I can recommend to that end. Firstly, find the location outside of the house where the main water line ties in to the house. Tie in a t-coupler that will allow you to put a valve wayward of the coupler in to the house and another valve going out to some external plumbing. This could even be just a regular water spigot if you prefer just using a hose rather than doing actual plumbing. Using this set up, you could have controlled water to the house with the first valve, but still have running water when the house is shut off. I believe this would be far, far less expensive than hauling in water. Also, you can use that same external plumbing to run a line to an outdoors processing station for chickens and rabbits, similar to the photo below. Use a 5- or 6-gallon bucket underneath and drain your water there. Use that to water the plants as well.

Another thing is that you can use all of your waste water to fertilize the yard. Even your human toilet waste is usable for these purposes. Check out this article from Mother Earth News titled "You Can Compost Human Waste!" In Lousiana, several of my wife's relatives use septic systems. The system uses an automatic float pump to purge the system of excess water when it rises to a certain level. It is pumped to a built-in sprinkler system and waters their entire yard, including all their plants. If you're dealing with completely screwed up plumbing, it makes this grey water system very, very appealing, I would think. I would absolutely love to do this in the future and will when we build our ranch house.

You'll just have to think outside the box. If you're planning on staying there for any length of time and repairing any of the plumbing at all, it'd be a great time to invest in a more holistic approach to waste management.

Thanks again for your great suggestions! We are trying to figure out how to alter the main water valve, so that we can at least just attach a hose to it so that the water doesn't run through all the old plumbing, just the main line to a hose.

We actually do recycle all of our waste water. We have two 5-gallon glass beverage dispensers (the real expensive Italian ones, but we found them at second-hand stores for under $20 each), and we fill them up with the $1.00 per 5 gallon watering stations. We use this water to drink, bathe, wash hands, etc. Under the sink that one of the dispensers is over, we have a bucket that we collect the wastewater with. I use this water to water the garden. We purchased an old claw-foot bathtub that we will install in place of the old plastic tub that is attached to the wall and floor, so that we can drain the wastewater into a tray that we can recycle into the garden. I also have several 5-gallon buckets outside under the gutters to collect rainwater to water the garden with.

Also, we do already use compost toilets that we built- nothing more than a bucket filled with peat moss in a box with a hole and a toilet seat Every couple of days I take it out and put it into a big compost hole, and then when it is full I plant a fruit tree in the compost pile.

We live pretty minimally, but our next step is solar power. We built some skylights into our ceilings to allow natural light into the house. Unfortunately there is no way to live off the grid water-wise, but I definitely want to recycle as much water as possible, even if we have to turn the plumbing back on.

Thanks again!

 

[TreesAndBrees]

I'll start out with the pomegranate trees first, since that's the easiest to explain.  They need long, deep, consistent watering in order to thrive.  Remember, they are not native to Arizona and require a very different type of treatment than what you would expect here.  The fruits cracking open is definitely a watering problem.  Pomegranates very quickly absorb water and immediately rush it to the fruits during periods of drought.  If you maintain that long, deep watering, this won't be an issue.  If you go a longer than normal period without watering, start out watering very lightly and then increase it slightly each day.  You really have to allow the to adjust gradually.

With everything else, you need to make sure you deep water, especially.  The general rule is to do a slow drip that soaks the ground enough to push a straightened metal clothes hanger about 8" deep without much of an issue.  My hibiscus tree did phenomenal with a thorough soaking once a week.  It was over 8' tall when I moved out of that house.  The heat and direct sunlight in here makes daily, shallow watering a catastrophe in the making.  The first couple of inches can dry out very quickly.

Also, you need to make sure the ground is very thoroughly balanced.  For my grass, I put dried but not composted horse manure all across my lawn.  In addition to the chicken manure, it has absolutely thrived to the point of cutting it every several days, while watering (backwashing my pool filter) every two weeks.  For my garden, I took that dried horse manure and made a good sized pile on my side yard.  Periodically, I would water and turn it.  In about three months, it was well on it's way to full compost material.  I mixed it in with the native soil and we planted broccoli, cauliflower, and various lettuce.  They all absolutely thrived when my wife didn't neglect watering them.  Here in Arizona, you'll need a much higher organic content.  Taking the horse manure along with whatever bedding, always found on Craig's List, and mixing it about 50/50 with the native soil has been my secret so far.

You should never be watering from above ground level.  Try to keep the water completely off the leaves and you'll have healthier plants.  Always use a flood-irrigation type watering method.  If you are concerned about evaporation, add a layer of hay or straw (mulch) that is several inches thick across your garden.  That will help prevent evaporation, as well as helping to prevent weeds from growing.

Another thing I would recommend is buying locally harvested seeds that are designed for our environment.  Check out the Native Seeds website.  They have a huge variety that are especially breed for growing in our horrible soil and drought conditions.  Based out of Tucson, they have collected heritage seeds from many of the founders of our state, as well as the Native Americans.  It's the best way to buy seeds and it's far more conducive to growing here.

Hope that helps.  I'm sure more advice will come along, too.

Actually I have a couple questions.

Since I dont have plumbing, and drip irrigation is impossible at the moment, how often should I deep water fruit trees, such as the pomegranates and peach trees?

Were you recommending flood irrigation for grass only, or for everything such as vegetables and fruit trees?

And in the stead of drip watering, would using a watering can at ground level until enough water has been poured be ok?

Thanks again, your help is indispensible!

 

[K9Dave]

Actually I have a couple questions.

Since I dont have plumbing, and drip irrigation is impossible at the moment, how often should I deep water fruit trees, such as the pomegranates and peach trees?

Were you recommending flood irrigation for grass only, or for everything such as vegetables and fruit trees?

And in the stead of drip watering, would using a watering can at ground level until enough water has been poured be ok?

Thanks again, your help is indispensible!

Ditto on the Thanks. To us newbies, it's a great help.

 

[Demosthine]

Actually I have a couple questions.

Since I dont have plumbing, and drip irrigation is impossible at the moment, how often should I deep water fruit trees, such as the pomegranates and peach trees?

Were you recommending flood irrigation for grass only, or for everything such as vegetables and fruit trees?

And in the stead of drip watering, would using a watering can at ground level until enough water has been poured be ok?

Thanks again, your help is indispensible!

I recommend flood irrigating for everything. The huge problem with drip irrigation is that it drastically limits the growth of the root systems. By flood irrigating, you'll get roots that go much deeper, but also that spread out much farther. Ideally, you should be watering the ground to the same extent that your tree canopy covers the ground. In typical landscaping, they never account for this. If you have an older tree that has a 20' canopy, your water needs to be covering the entire outer perimeter of that canopy, plus everything inside of it. That's why you see so many trees fall at the slightest store in Arizona. Our minimal watering philosophy is severely damaging to them, causing shallow roots. A properly growing tree should have a root system that mirrors the tree above ground, basically, as seen in the photo below.

​

It's my understanding that for a properly established fruit tree, you should water deeply every 7 to 10 days. When you initially plant a tree, the guides I read said to water every three or four days for the first two weeks. After every two week interval, increase that by an additional day. There are several catches to that, the biggest of which means you have adequate ground cover to prevent large amounts of evaporation. This is one of the reasons I always recommend grass over rocks. The grass insulates the ground from the sun, which lowers the ground temperature. Lower ground temperatures mean lower and more stable ambient temperatures. For animals, it helps prevent heat exhaustion, especially in animals like chickens, where they cool themselves through their feet. I did a comparison on a 117* day last summer. The grass in the sun was a full 20* cooler than my gravel front yard. The shaded grass was a full 30* cooler. Can you imagine how much of a difference that makes to my chickens? During the dead heat of summer, they were out laying in the sunny grass and doing just fine. The second catch to that is that it is either flat ground or you have an adequate tree ring around it to prevent the flood irrigation from simply running off away from the tree.

Another benefit to flood irrigation, although drip irrigation has the same benefit, is that it keeps the moisture off of the foliage. This is especially important in gardens. When the leaves are wet, they can start to develop molds on them, especially on the undersides. Obviously, this is harmful to the plants. I found this out the hard way when I planted my first garden and installed sprinklers in the flower beds. It took awhile to figure out why everything kept on dying. Eventually, I learned it was because I was watering above ground level.

 

[TreesAndBrees]

I recommend flood irrigating for everything. The huge problem with drip irrigation is that it drastically limits the growth of the root systems. By flood irrigating, you'll get roots that go much deeper, but also that spread out much farther. Ideally, you should be watering the ground to the same extent that your tree canopy covers the ground. In typical landscaping, they never account for this. If you have an older tree that has a 20' canopy, your water needs to be covering the entire outer perimeter of that canopy, plus everything inside of it. That's why you see so many trees fall at the slightest store in Arizona. Our minimal watering philosophy is severely damaging to them, causing shallow roots. A properly growing tree should have a root system that mirrors the tree above ground, basically, as seen in the photo below.

It's my understanding that for a properly established fruit tree, you should water deeply every 7 to 10 days. When you initially plant a tree, the guides I read said to water every three or four days for the first two weeks. After every two week interval, increase that by an additional day. There are several catches to that, the biggest of which means you have adequate ground cover to prevent large amounts of evaporation. This is one of the reasons I always recommend grass over rocks. The grass insulates the ground from the sun, which lowers the ground temperature. Lower ground temperatures mean lower and more stable ambient temperatures. For animals, it helps prevent heat exhaustion, especially in animals like chickens, where they cool themselves through their feet. I did a comparison on a 117* day last summer. The grass in the sun was a full 20* cooler than my gravel front yard. The shaded grass was a full 30* cooler. Can you imagine how much of a difference that makes to my chickens? During the dead heat of summer, they were out laying in the sunny grass and doing just fine. The second catch to that is that it is either flat ground or you have an adequate tree ring around it to prevent the flood irrigation from simply running off away from the tree.

Another benefit to flood irrigation, although drip irrigation has the same benefit, is that it keeps the moisture off of the foliage. This is especially important in gardens. When the leaves are wet, they can start to develop molds on them, especially on the undersides. Obviously, this is harmful to the plants. I found this out the hard way when I planted my first garden and installed sprinklers in the flower beds. It took awhile to figure out why everything kept on dying. Eventually, I learned it was because I was watering above ground level.

Oh thanks! Again!

I planted my fruit trees in a sort of ditch, with the ground angled down towards the trunk of the tree, the idea being that it will hold more water when it rains and direct it towards the tree and not away from the tree. I wonder if this actually works? I was trying to make it sort of like swales from the book Gaia's Garden to hold a lens of water beneath the ground.

I guess I am SOL again anyway because my property is the side of a hill...so all of my land is diagonal instead of flat. The most flat land I can manage is about 3-4 feet in width on a long narrow strip. And, it's all natural mountain rock and dirt out here, no grass whatsoever. Luckily it is generally cooler in the summer, last summer it hit 110 degrees for 3 days straight but that's the warmest it got. I still need to build a really long fence before I can let my chickens free range, so the poor things are stuck in the big barn for now.

Thanks again for your help!