Border collie as a chicken protector?

[Crazy_chicken_lady1996]

Hey guys, so I got a big fright last week... I live in a suburban area in Australia and usually let my 8 silkies free roam my garden all day (I've got this going on for 2 years with no issues), my silkies scream and cluck aggressively at me if I don't let them out in the morning even though they have a big run (they are super spoilt and have made me their slave)... they always make their way back home themselves before sunset and I've never lost any to a predator. Last week however, my chickens were hardcore doing the egg song outside for about 10mins so I went outside to see what was going on and SAW A MASSIVE EAGLE/HAWK/CHICKEN EATING BIRD trying to get to them?? Luckily they were all hiding under the pomegranate tree which has spikes and the eagle or whatever was trying but couldn't get to them, but it gave me the biggest fright ever as I have never seen a bird of prey (or a bird that big) in my area before.

Now I'm wondering if it would be possible to train my dog to be their protector so they can still free roam outside all day. I have a purebred border collie that just turned 1, I got him after I got the chickens so he's used to them and sees them all day, the chickens are also used to him as well. I've trained him to behave calmly around them and now he just ignores them whenever he's outside, although he will eat all of their droppings and leftovers (I've given up training that out of him...). He doesn't eat their feathers like he used to, he just smells them sometimes and it gets stuck to his nose. However, I've always been too scared to let them both into the garden at the same time as I don't want to risk losing any of my chickens... So whenever he's running around in the garden, the chickens are locked up in the run, and whenever the chickens are free roaming the garden, he's inside the house, they can always see each other though, and he sleeps outside with full view of the chickens and the run. He's a big boy (25kg) and although I feel like he wouldn't intentionally kill a chicken, I know if he accidently steps on one, then the chicken would probs die. He's a bit goofy and gets super triggered by possums and other small rodents. but he seems pretty calm around the chickens, I've been keeping him outside more often these days and he chases birds and other things away from the chicken run and garden in general. I'm just wondering if anyone has got experience with training border collies to be livestock guardians if they already show protective instincts towards the chickens? Also, just to note, he's not from working lines so he's a pretty chill border collie that just likes to follow us around the house and nap under our feet - he just likes to be wherever we are, even if it's inside all day (he whines sometimes if we leave him outside for too long, but rest assured, we do take him for runs and walks everyday which he appreciates). But I'm also pretty sure he's not from show lines either...

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I'm speaking from 10 years of Guide Dog for the Blind puppy raising projects (taking a pup to fully socialized and behaviorly trained to turn into campus for actual blind training) which came with extensive dog training.

I've also been around dogs a lot, in Dog 4H and agility, including herders, which your Border Collie is.

Everything you've done thus far has been excellent to desensitize your BC to not chase the chickens, however, you are correct to not let him alone with them. Herders are chasers by nature. Yes, he is a chill one, not from working lines, which is probably why you've had the great success thus far. Herders are essentially controlled prey drives.

Actually training a dog to GUARD the chickens is totally different. They have to recognize the predator, drive off the predator, and then recognize the frantic chickens as something other than bait. That is the job of the highly specialized LGD (large guard dog) which has been bred for centuries for that kind of actual guarding.

Can some pets chill out in the yard with the chickens? Yes they can. Will they actually GUARD the chickens...not very likely at all.

The most you likely can hope for is a dog that will alert bark if there is a commotion in the area. That may dissuade this bird of prey. Just having the dog out can help, some. However, leaving the dog alone with the birds all day long to "protect" them will very likely end in your herder eventually relying on what his genes tell him to do...chase and herd...which usually quickly spirals into catch and kill.

So with my knowledge of dog types (my daughter was also a Vet Tech and we brought different dogs home for training), my knowledge of dog training, and understanding your situation is an inexperienced dog with a non-professional handler, I would say that would be a very, very tall order for your dog.

It would take intensive training to socialize him to the flock as his "pack," and then trust his instincts would not kick in to chase and herd.

I think you would do better to lock up your birds for at least a few days until this bird of prey moves on. It is is typical that you'll have several years of nothing, then suddenly, you've got an opportunist. If it gets that first kill, it WILL be back every day until you convince it that the food line is closed.

In my experience, Silkies are generally very, very poor at running out of the way of danger as they waddle more than they run. I eventually had to lock mine in a separate hutch/run (which became the broody hutch since they were always going broody) to keep them out of the way from my Peregrine, Cooper's and Red Tail hawks.

As it is, I'll have months with no strikes, then suddenly there's a hunter in the sky with frantic birds and often one dead body. I lock up for a week, and then gradually let them back out again. Crisis over and I'll have months again with no predators.

Also consider bird netting. That can also really help keep the bird kills down.

My 2 cents.
LofMc

 

[Crazy_chicken_lady1996]

I'm speaking from 10 years of Guide Dog for the Blind puppy raising projects (taking a pup to fully socialized and behaviorly trained to turn into campus for actual blind training) which came with extensive dog training.

I've also been around dogs a lot, in Dog 4H and agility, including herders, which your Border Collie is.

Everything you've done thus far has been excellent to desensitize your BC to not chase the chickens, however, you are correct to not let him alone with them. Herders are chasers by nature. Yes, he is a chill one, not from working lines, which is probably why you've had the great success thus far. Herders are essentially controlled prey drives.

Actually training a dog to GUARD the chickens is totally different. They have to recognize the predator, drive off the predator, and then recognize the frantic chickens as something other than bait. That is the job of the highly specialized LGD (large guard dog) which has been bred for centuries for that kind of actual guarding.

Can some pets chill out in the yard with the chickens? Yes they can. Will they actually GUARD the chickens...not very likely at all.

The most you likely can hope for is a dog that will alert bark if there is a commotion in the area. That may dissuade this bird of prey. Just having the dog out can help, some. However, leaving the dog alone with the birds all day long to "protect" them will very likely end in your herder eventually relying on what his genes tell him to do...chase and herd...which usually quickly spirals into catch and kill.

So with my knowledge of dog types (my daughter was also a Vet Tech and we brought different dogs home for training), my knowledge of dog training, and understanding your situation is an inexperienced dog with a non-professional handler, I would say that would be a very, very tall order for your dog.

It would take intensive training to socialize him to the flock as his "pack," and then trust his instincts would not kick in to chase and herd.

I think you would do better to lock up your birds for at least a few days until this bird of prey moves on. It is is typical that you'll have several years of nothing, then suddenly, you've got an opportunist. If it gets that first kill, it WILL be back every day until you convince it that the food line is closed.

In my experience, Silkies are generally very, very poor at running out of the way of danger as they waddle more than they run. I eventually had to lock mine in a separate hutch/run (which became the broody hutch since they were always going broody) to keep them out of the way from my Peregrine, Cooper's and Red Tail hawks.

As it is, I'll have months with no strikes, then suddenly there's a hunter in the sky with frantic birds and often one dead body. I lock up for a week, and then gradually let them back out again. Crisis over and I'll have months again with no predators.

Also consider bird netting. That can also really help keep the bird kills down.

My 2 cents.
LofMc

Thank you so much for your in-depth reply, it helps a lot! I think I will just keep my doggo outside a lot more this month so he can chase things away from the garden and only let the chickens out whenever I am outside to supervise. I'm really hoping that one day my dog and chickens can just chill out together in the yard, even if he's not "protecting" them as most other birds, cats, etc. are scared of him just being there anyway.

 

[PastyButtsMom]

I just happened across your post because your dog is so cute! Just wanted to throw my experience in so you have an idea of what’s possible. I have two dogs - one LGD mix and another husky/Aussie/terrier mix. I leave my dogs alone outside with my chickens all the time with no worries whatsoever but I had to observe for a long time to get comfortable. The LGD mix totally ignores my chickens altogether. He was two when we got the chickens and he was very excited about them. We had the chickens for about 6 months before I even tried free ranging them all together. I started letting him out while the chickens were out, but with a long leash so I could step on it if he charged them. He never did. We got our husky mix (at 4 mos old) after we already had the chickens so she grew up with them. I was worried at first because of her breeds’ high prey drive (rat terrier and husky!!) but also let her out with them on long leash but the leash only lasted a week because I quickly learned that she viewed them as part of the family. She follows them around the garden and lays down next to wherever they’re hanging out. She loves them. We had a hawk attack one day and I didn’t realize until it was too late. my husky mix was waiting at the back door to get out there (she’s not a barker but knew something was happening). I happened to open the door to go out and check on the chickens and she raced out first and ran straight at the hawk that was on the ground attacking. It flew up into a tree and she followed it to the base of the tree until it flew away. I don’t think my LGD mixed cared to protect the chickens (though he’d chase a hawk in the yard simply because he’s very territorial and chases ANYTHING off our property - people included. He doesn’t chase anything off our property and has ZERO prey drive). But turns out the husky mix is protective.
I think having your dog will be an excellent deterrent even if he’s not intentionally protecting the chickens because if he’s curious or territorial he will likely run after it if it’s in the yard, or bark, all of which would run the hawk off long enough for you to get outside at least. It’s not 100% of course. Hawks (any raptor) are so ballsy! I say start keeping him out with you on a long lead and whenever he even looks at the chickens (first week only) tell him •leave it” or “mine” or whatever works for you, and give a correction or block him or whatever so he knows they are not his to play with. It’s so nice to have all the animals out together anyway!

 

[PastyButtsMom]

Here’s my girl hanging out with her chicken family

 

[KimsNest]

Hey guys, so I got a big fright last week... I live in a suburban area in Australia and usually let my 8 silkies free roam my garden all day (I've got this going on for 2 years with no issues), my silkies scream and cluck aggressively at me if I don't let them out in the morning even though they have a big run (they are super spoilt and have made me their slave)... they always make their way back home themselves before sunset and I've never lost any to a predator. Last week however, my chickens were hardcore doing the egg song outside for about 10mins so I went outside to see what was going on and SAW A MASSIVE EAGLE/HAWK/CHICKEN EATING BIRD trying to get to them?? Luckily they were all hiding under the pomegranate tree which has spikes and the eagle or whatever was trying but couldn't get to them, but it gave me the biggest fright ever as I have never seen a bird of prey (or a bird that big) in my area before.

Now I'm wondering if it would be possible to train my dog to be their protector so they can still free roam outside all day. I have a purebred border collie that just turned 1, I got him after I got the chickens so he's used to them and sees them all day, the chickens are also used to him as well. I've trained him to behave calmly around them and now he just ignores them whenever he's outside, although he will eat all of their droppings and leftovers (I've given up training that out of him...). He doesn't eat their feathers like he used to, he just smells them sometimes and it gets stuck to his nose. However, I've always been too scared to let them both into the garden at the same time as I don't want to risk losing any of my chickens... So whenever he's running around in the garden, the chickens are locked up in the run, and whenever the chickens are free roaming the garden, he's inside the house, they can always see each other though, and he sleeps outside with full view of the chickens and the run. He's a big boy (25kg) and although I feel like he wouldn't intentionally kill a chicken, I know if he accidently steps on one, then the chicken would probs die. He's a bit goofy and gets super triggered by possums and other small rodents. but he seems pretty calm around the chickens, I've been keeping him outside more often these days and he chases birds and other things away from the chicken run and garden in general. I'm just wondering if anyone has got experience with training border collies to be livestock guardians if they already show protective instincts towards the chickens? Also, just to note, he's not from working lines so he's a pretty chill border collie that just likes to follow us around the house and nap under our feet - he just likes to be wherever we are, even if it's inside all day (he whines sometimes if we leave him outside for too long, but rest assured, we do take him for runs and walks everyday which he appreciates). But I'm also pretty sure he's not from show lines either...
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I Love your post. I hope you sort things out. We are indeed slaves to our chickens…
I have a mixed border collie and she is extremely protective of our chickens.
I have some brooder chicks in my laundry room and when I let them out to run wild she has to be in the room with me. She will even growl at her beloved dog sisters if they get too close to the chicks.
Also, hello from GA in USA!

 

[centrarchid]

I use dogs to defend chickens, or more specifically the area the chickens are kept. Most of my dogs are English Shepherds which represent at least part of the ancestry or Border Collies. Both breeds have high prey drive and take a lot of work get them past munching on chickens and targeting predators instead. My dogs must be at least 18 months if not 24 months before they can be trusted with chickens 24/7. It takes a lot of work. The dogs are more effective as pairs and training more than one at a time is very difficult at least for me and I've been messing with dogs and chicken since the mid 1970's. I like to stagger dogs by about 2 years for training although even I can do two at once, although you can loose sleep doing.

That said, the dog approach is very expensive and better suited for more chickens and acreage as well as will some form of fencing.

With smaller flocks, I would invest more effort in containing chickens in predator resistant pens and have dog provide alarm and harass predators trying to breach pens.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

This thread is about a year old but I'm wondering how it's going ....

Lady of McCanley gave some wonderful advice and suggestions, and @PastyButtsMom had a good suggestion or two as well. I especially liked this:

started letting him out while the chickens were out, but with a long leash so I could step on it if he charged them.

I like a 15-foot cotton web long line as I can usually step on it before the dog gets too far away; for a faster dog a length of clothesline with a clasp on one end can be made whatever length is required. Just be sure you stop the dog by stepping on the line, he's too fast for you to reach it with your hand and also you'll get a nasty burn if you do grab it with your bare hand while he's running.

When we got our Sheltie Sammy at 15 months, I used the "see-no-touch" method on him. Every day he spent a couple of hours in the grow-out pen next to the chickens until after a couple of weeks he'd lost interest in them. Then I took him into the run with him on the long line and let him drag it. He looked at me like, "So?" I walked around, moving the chickens around and he followed me, still not sure what the big deal was. Then I ran among the chickens to spook them into fluttering, but he still showed no interest. From that day I have trusted him loose around the birds unattended, with no problems. (He's only interested in their droppings.)

As for protecting them ... not really, or at least not with intent. But he and our Golden follow the chickens around the property, marking their territory, and we have not seen coyotes in a good long while although we know there are plenty about. They are useless against aerial predators however. What can a dog do against a hawk that will swoop down and snatch a chick six feet away from a yelling human?

 

[Penpal]

My border collie was from champion herding lines. My sheep would attest that he was a great herder.

He was a fast learner and I taught him "leave it". When we got chickens he was a year old. I just told him "leave it" when he showed interest. He protected the chickens, which free ranged, by his mere presence. The scent of an intact male will keep some predators away, the busy movement of the dog will keep some away. I don't know if he kept hawks away. We had one, then later two, red tailed hawks that sat on the electric poles, but they never bothered the chickens or the chicks. I don't know if it was the dog that scared them, or if they didn't consider the chooks food (watched them hunt mice).