Breeding Chocolate Orpingtons

[JessN]

Hi all,
Hopefully I’m posting this in the right section. As background, I am based in Australia and over here we have primarily bantam chocolate orpingtons however I am hoping to breed standard.

I am fairly new to the breeding world when it comes to crosses so I was hoping for some guidance. I have done some research suggesting that mating a chocolate bantam rooster to a black standard hen (if successful) will produce chocolate hens and black split cockerels.

My thought process in order to get a possibly standard chocolate variety would be to breed the chocolate bantam rooster against a black standard hen, select the best pullet chicks from this hatch and breed back over the bantam rooster (in an attempt to better the chocolate colouring) and the best cockerels back across the standard black hen (to attempt to further increase size).
From the gen 3 hatchlings breed best cockerel and pullet providing their stats indicate true standard sizing and specs.

I would only be looking to select chicks that carry the correct Orpington specifics in terms of leg colour etc during this process.
Can anyone advise if this would actually work in creating a standard chocolate Orpington?
Thanks for any guidance in advance
Jess

 

[Debbie292d]

Here's a link I use for my silkies.

Genetics - Color: https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...n-color-genetics.1219858/page-2#post-19511066

I hope this helps!

Otherwise, there's this one I don't use but others do:

Genetics - other: https://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page3.html

 

[Debbie292d]

I didn't even say hi! Welcome to BYC!

 

[JessN]

I didn't even say hi! Welcome to BYC!

No problems! Hi thank you for the link, I’ll take a look to make sure I’m on the right track colour wise

 

[SourRoses]

I'm not an expert but I do have chocolate in my flock... I don't see how breeding back to chocolate would better the color.
The chocolates I ended up with are all quite dark, from a black mottled rooster carrying recessive chocolate.
Breeding back to bantam size would reinforce the size genes and you'd end up with bantam offspring.

When you hatch chicks with chocolate coming only from the rooster, all chicks showing chocolate would be pullets.
So if it were me, for practical purposes, I would hatch a lot, keep only the chocolates.
Breed those to a full size black roo, hatch a lot. Some of their offspring will be chocolate (male & female this time, since it's coming from the hens).
Choose the biggest, and breed those F2's together. By F3 you should have some chocolates close to the right size.
Each generation, just hatch as many as you can so you have the widest pool to select from.

 

[JessN]

I'm not an expert but I do have chocolate in my flock... I don't see how breeding back to chocolate would better the color.
The chocolates I ended up with are all quite dark, from a black mottled rooster carrying recessive chocolate.
Breeding back to bantam size would reinforce the size genes and you'd end up with bantam offspring.

When you hatch chicks with chocolate coming only from the rooster, all chicks showing chocolate would be pullets.
So if it were me, for practical purposes, I would hatch a lot, keep only the chocolates.
Breed those to a full size black roo, hatch a lot. Some of their offspring will be chocolate (male & female this time, since it's coming from the hens).
Choose the biggest, and breed those F2's together. By F3 you should have some chocolates close to the right size.
Each generation, just hatch as many as you can so you have the widest pool to select from.

Thanks, that makes complete sense!
From what I had read I thought by breeding to a non- chocolate rooster, none of the offspring would be chocolate and that I may run the risk of losing the chocolate colour as I continued to breed for size increase. but I didn’t consider the possibility about breeding from the chocolate split variation in the hatchlings. Awesome, that’s really helpful! Thanks so much

 

[SourRoses]

Thanks, that makes complete sense!
From what I had read I thought by breeding to a non- chocolate rooster, none of the offspring would be chocolate and that I may run the risk of losing the chocolate colour as I continued to breed for size increase. but I didn’t consider the possibility about breeding from the chocolate split variation in the hatchlings. Awesome, that’s really helpful! Thanks so much

Chocolate is not a typical recessive gene...
I forget the proper term for what it is, that's what we need folks like @NatJ for (and many others with good memories, alas my damaged one can not remember their names quickly, lol).

So basically, you can get fully chocolate offspring from a black rooster merely carrying the chocolate gene.
If the hen is black, all that appear chocolate will be pullets.
There will be some black pullets, but it's easier for breeding purposes (imo) to just pick the chocolates. Some of the cockerels would carry chocolate, some wont, but you won't be able to tell which is which.
While roosters can be split for chocolate (requiring 2 copies for him to appear chocolate), hens can only attain 1 copy or none at all. So a hen that appears chocolate is at maximum chocolateness.
Ghirardelli? Lindt?
Err, I mean... Violet Crumble? TimTams? (my Mom is an Aussie)


Here. Have a picture. This is Cocomo, one of our chocolate hens from a fully black Ameraucana hen crossed with a black mottled Orpington rooster who was split to chocolate. She is split to mottled as you can see the little spots on her saddle.
Isn't it odd that hens can only have one serving of chocolate but two of sprinkles??

 

[JessN]

Chocolate is not a typical recessive gene...
I forget the proper term for what it is, that's what we need folks like @NatJ for (and many others with good memories, alas my damaged one can not remember their names quickly, lol).

So basically, you can get fully chocolate offspring from a black rooster merely carrying the chocolate gene.
If the hen is black, all that appear chocolate will be pullets.
There will be some black pullets, but it's easier for breeding purposes (imo) to just pick the chocolates. Some of the cockerels would carry chocolate, some wont, but you won't be able to tell which is which.
While roosters can be split for chocolate (requiring 2 copies for him to appear chocolate), hens can only attain 1 copy or none at all. So a hen that appears chocolate is at maximum chocolateness.
Ghirardelli? Lindt?
Err, I mean... Violet Crumble? TimTams? (my Mom is an Aussie)


Here. Have a picture. This is Cocomo, one of our chocolate hens from a fully black Ameraucana hen crossed with a black mottled Orpington rooster who was split to chocolate. She is split to mottled as you can see the little spots on her saddle.
Isn't it odd that hens can only have one serving of chocolate but two of sprinkles??

View attachment 3870289

Tim tam is a great reference!

So theoretically if it’s not possible to tell which cockerels carried split chocolate genes, it’s best to breed the bantam chocolate rooster to the standard black hen, and then breed the female chocolate pullets from that lot to the bantam chocolate rooster as a chocolate x chocolate which will result in potentially both chocolate cockerel and pullets?

Just trying to find ways I can carry the chocolate across and work towards the increase of size until at normal standard Orpington size.
I’m expecting some trial and error but any advice to help me on the right track is most appreciated!

 

[SourRoses]

So theoretically if it’s not possible to tell which cockerels carried split chocolate genes

Right. You could, technically, test-breed them. I always think that sounds like a huge investment though... raising, housing, and mating a bunch of cockerels. Eek!

To keep chicken breeding fun, and not this big out of control hobby that takes over your life and your pocketbook... it seems a good idea to find the shortest way from point A to B.
I'm 2 years into a project myself and each breeding season you have to go through the debacle of deciding whether you've bitten off more than you can chew. Wonder how to make the project more manageable.
Mine is considerably more ambitious (read: crazy). But you have a perfect excuse! There you are, in a country without full sized Chocolate Orpies! I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers for the finished product.

I'm confident that the first generation, picking the Chocolate pullets is your best bet.
After that, I get a little hazy... and I sure hope some breeding experts will chime in with their two cents to give you a nice balanced perspective.

After you get to a stage where you have a decent sized chocolate rooster, you may want to cross him with some black hens with all the right traits. Size is easy to lose. Floof is important. It may be easier to secure that in a cross to black show type hens then to try to pick for every trait, every generation, the whole way along. It can be challenging to hatch out a sufficient number of chicks each season to be as picky as you may want to be with the breeder selections. I've has an issue this summer with my slow-poke Orpington cockerel of choice taking forever to grow up enough to want to mount the hens (6 months)... then I finally get some chicks off him this summer and now the next batch he's only fertilized 3 of the hens and I had to throw out a gazillion dud eggs. Ergh! I digress...

TimTams are so yummy! Our local Publix supermarket recently started carrying them, which made my long-suffering mom SO happy. She misses so many foods! And American chocolate sucks in comparison.
(for my fellow Americans, TimTams are sorta like KitKats but with better quality chocolate and a chocolate crunchy interior)

 

[SourRoses]

and then breed the female chocolate pullets from that lot to the bantam chocolate rooster as a chocolate x chocolate which will result in potentially both chocolate cockerel and pullets?

I would not use the Bantam chocolate rooster twice. Just that original cross. Otherwise his size genes would take over.
As soon as you've got a good amount of chocolate pullets off of him (more than you want to end up with, more is better, you can always rehome extra ladies), then I would go ahead and rehome him and bring in a full size black Orpington rooster. This would be a good time to get a show quality line, some girls with him, that you can use later in the project (see above post).
You want to be working the size up as soon as you can, otherwise you will stagnate with smaller chickens. Size is easy to lose.

From those chocolate pullets and full size black roo, the offspring will be a mix with some chocolate pullets and some black cockerels split to chocolate and some not split at all. This is where I get confused. I imagine you would want to use those cockerels, but you may have to test breed to see who's carrying it. Someone chime in please, lol.