Glad I checked out this thread had wanted to try Delaware's.
Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection
- Thread starter capayvalleychick
- Start date
- Dec 2, 2014
- 11
- 1
- 24
I thought the Modesto show was last weekend?
finnfur
Songster
Good luck on the show - bring home the blue - Dels need some respect.
I would love to go but haven't sold enough eggs for the cab fare yet.
That was the hollister show. I think
I have been asked by several people about my Delawares, so I will share some background here.
I got started with them in 2010. I found a local woman that was raising them for meat and had been selecting breeders based on weight for several years. The result was a large and early maturing bird with high egg production but one that was not bred specifically to meet SOP standards. My goal has been to keep the excellent production traits but also have them bred to the Standard.
In 2011 I swapped chicks with my friend Kathy Bonham and received some of her awesome NHs and BRs. She had just acquired them to start the Delaware recreation project. She was looking for partners in the project but at the time I did not feel I had the resources to dedicate to it. I continued to keep in touch and follow her progress and liked what I saw very much. In the meantime I was enjoying the BRs and NHs in their own right and was learning about the characteristics and traits of those breeds. I felt my progress was slow going on improving the Delaware using the stock I had on hand. Doing the pure Delaware recreation was still daunting to me in terms of the hatching involved. I am not sure if you guys are aware, but in her first F1 cross, her odds were 1 in 84 to get a useable female. I think she ended up with 2 females out of 116 to go forward with. THAT is dedication.
I started to wonder if there could be a shortcut to that process and if the NH and BR could be used in a way that would incorporate some of those good genes yet also retain the characteristics I wanted to retain from the Delaware. I had come to learn that while the NHs were fairly productive and early maturing, the BRs were not. The BRs were not coming into lay until 10 months old, or later. Once laying they were not very prolific layers of smaller eggs than you would expect from such large birds. In addition, they are slow to mature so are not an efficient meat bird. My pure Dels have always started to lay at 20-22 weeks and mature quickly enough to be ready to process while young enough to be tender.
To this end I did the same cross as Kathy did to make the F1s….BR over NH hens. So the root of this project started with the same linage as those of you with Kathy’s Dels. Instead of crossing the F1s together though, I put the best F1 male over Del hens. All those chicks hatched black, but were split for recessive white. I again put the best male over pure Del and hatched roughly 50/50 black and yellow chicks. I just kept the yellow to go forward with and that is where I am at now, with a ¾ Del, 1/8 BR, 1/8 NH genotype that look like Del phenotype. They are all under a year, so I am not sure they will be as good at laying through the winter as the pure Del who take about 6 weeks off to molt, then get back to business. However, all of the cross Dels have started laying at 19-22 weeks. I was actually hoping the cross would slow them down a bit and give their bodies more time to mature before onset, but that did not happen.
In terms of the differences in type and development, I am seeing a bit better tail angle and breast roundness. Growth wise they seem to be on par with the pure Del weight wise, but are not as tall or long and the weight comes from a fuller breast and more width. 6 months is when I do a benchmark weight on everyone and both the before and after Dels are averaging 5 ¾ lbs for pullets and 8lbs for cockerels at that age. The result is an over standard bird weight wise by a year old, but I am really interested in having a good alternative to the CornishX with these and the size will give me some leeway as I work on color and type, in terms of size not being as much of a selection factor. I am still not getting the nice spread tails in the pullets that you guys with the recreation are getting. That will be a focus going forward, and I think I have a cockerel that will help. The crossed birds seem to have a little more feather than the originals. As a result they look a little bigger than they actually are. The opposite was true of the originals. To my disappointment, the cross has not improved feather quality as I hoped it would. I think the tail feathers are a bit wider, but the body feathers fray and get raggedy as the mating season progresses. They do not age and wear well. I often say that my Del hens who can look quite nice as pullets look like rode hard and put away wet hens.
I am seeing many of the same issues that I had before the cross and some of the same as those of you with the recreation line. The one difference is that mine tend to be undercolored rather than overcolored. I have been culling for the Columbian striping and now the hackle barring is too faint. I am getting the yellowing with age and recently had to cull an otherwise promising male for slipped wing. I am continuing to get greenish legs in about the same % as before….20%. These are always pullets and I cull for this when it shows, at about 3 weeks. I think my males are better than females at this point and this is partly due to not having as many pullets to select for after the leg color cull.
At this point all my Dels are the ¾ projects, except for one pure hen. My next step going forward is to dabble with some pure BR crossed to the Del projects, and pure NH crossed to the Del. I have some juvies growing out of these crosses, but it is too early to see if they will help. In the BR cross, I am hoping to eliminate the yellowing as BRs are supposed to carry the stay white gene. I am hoping also that I will get better barring on the hackles and in the male tails. I am hoping the NH will improve the female tail. I am using a Del cockerel over the NH hens and just keeping the pullets. Reason being the reverse will result in gold females as they can only inherit one copy of either Gold or Silver from the sire, and obviously we want them to be Silver based.
Delaware’s are a challenge. I have great admiration for those of you working on Kathy’s line and am so happy to see the dedication to continuing her good work. I have taken a different path, but really owe anything good I have done to Kathy. Not only was she generous in sharing her birds with me, but I was so inspired and excited by her projects I have attempted a few of my own.
I wish I had documented better with photos, but will share a few here-
Here are a some second and third gen Dels, pre cross-
And a few progression shots of the crossed Del-
This is a 9 week old. Early on I began to see the rounded bowl underline on some, and these are the ones I moved forward to grow out-
A cockerel @ 18 weeks (pullet in front was a few weeks younger)-
a different cockerel @ 21 weeks on the left and 25 weeks on the right-
an 18 week old pullet-
This is one of the 1/2 BR 1/2 Del pullets I have used for the next phase-
They surprisingly started laying at 5 months also, and the pullet eggs were larger than BR hen eggs.
This is one of my youngest, pictured here at 6 months. Tail barring is not very good, but I am hoping he will add tail spread and width to the next generation of pullets-
They continue to be a work in progress and are at times frustrating, but mostly I am having FUN and enjoying the process.
I got started with them in 2010. I found a local woman that was raising them for meat and had been selecting breeders based on weight for several years. The result was a large and early maturing bird with high egg production but one that was not bred specifically to meet SOP standards. My goal has been to keep the excellent production traits but also have them bred to the Standard.
In 2011 I swapped chicks with my friend Kathy Bonham and received some of her awesome NHs and BRs. She had just acquired them to start the Delaware recreation project. She was looking for partners in the project but at the time I did not feel I had the resources to dedicate to it. I continued to keep in touch and follow her progress and liked what I saw very much. In the meantime I was enjoying the BRs and NHs in their own right and was learning about the characteristics and traits of those breeds. I felt my progress was slow going on improving the Delaware using the stock I had on hand. Doing the pure Delaware recreation was still daunting to me in terms of the hatching involved. I am not sure if you guys are aware, but in her first F1 cross, her odds were 1 in 84 to get a useable female. I think she ended up with 2 females out of 116 to go forward with. THAT is dedication.
I started to wonder if there could be a shortcut to that process and if the NH and BR could be used in a way that would incorporate some of those good genes yet also retain the characteristics I wanted to retain from the Delaware. I had come to learn that while the NHs were fairly productive and early maturing, the BRs were not. The BRs were not coming into lay until 10 months old, or later. Once laying they were not very prolific layers of smaller eggs than you would expect from such large birds. In addition, they are slow to mature so are not an efficient meat bird. My pure Dels have always started to lay at 20-22 weeks and mature quickly enough to be ready to process while young enough to be tender.
To this end I did the same cross as Kathy did to make the F1s….BR over NH hens. So the root of this project started with the same linage as those of you with Kathy’s Dels. Instead of crossing the F1s together though, I put the best F1 male over Del hens. All those chicks hatched black, but were split for recessive white. I again put the best male over pure Del and hatched roughly 50/50 black and yellow chicks. I just kept the yellow to go forward with and that is where I am at now, with a ¾ Del, 1/8 BR, 1/8 NH genotype that look like Del phenotype. They are all under a year, so I am not sure they will be as good at laying through the winter as the pure Del who take about 6 weeks off to molt, then get back to business. However, all of the cross Dels have started laying at 19-22 weeks. I was actually hoping the cross would slow them down a bit and give their bodies more time to mature before onset, but that did not happen.
In terms of the differences in type and development, I am seeing a bit better tail angle and breast roundness. Growth wise they seem to be on par with the pure Del weight wise, but are not as tall or long and the weight comes from a fuller breast and more width. 6 months is when I do a benchmark weight on everyone and both the before and after Dels are averaging 5 ¾ lbs for pullets and 8lbs for cockerels at that age. The result is an over standard bird weight wise by a year old, but I am really interested in having a good alternative to the CornishX with these and the size will give me some leeway as I work on color and type, in terms of size not being as much of a selection factor. I am still not getting the nice spread tails in the pullets that you guys with the recreation are getting. That will be a focus going forward, and I think I have a cockerel that will help. The crossed birds seem to have a little more feather than the originals. As a result they look a little bigger than they actually are. The opposite was true of the originals. To my disappointment, the cross has not improved feather quality as I hoped it would. I think the tail feathers are a bit wider, but the body feathers fray and get raggedy as the mating season progresses. They do not age and wear well. I often say that my Del hens who can look quite nice as pullets look like rode hard and put away wet hens.
I am seeing many of the same issues that I had before the cross and some of the same as those of you with the recreation line. The one difference is that mine tend to be undercolored rather than overcolored. I have been culling for the Columbian striping and now the hackle barring is too faint. I am getting the yellowing with age and recently had to cull an otherwise promising male for slipped wing. I am continuing to get greenish legs in about the same % as before….20%. These are always pullets and I cull for this when it shows, at about 3 weeks. I think my males are better than females at this point and this is partly due to not having as many pullets to select for after the leg color cull.
At this point all my Dels are the ¾ projects, except for one pure hen. My next step going forward is to dabble with some pure BR crossed to the Del projects, and pure NH crossed to the Del. I have some juvies growing out of these crosses, but it is too early to see if they will help. In the BR cross, I am hoping to eliminate the yellowing as BRs are supposed to carry the stay white gene. I am hoping also that I will get better barring on the hackles and in the male tails. I am hoping the NH will improve the female tail. I am using a Del cockerel over the NH hens and just keeping the pullets. Reason being the reverse will result in gold females as they can only inherit one copy of either Gold or Silver from the sire, and obviously we want them to be Silver based.
Delaware’s are a challenge. I have great admiration for those of you working on Kathy’s line and am so happy to see the dedication to continuing her good work. I have taken a different path, but really owe anything good I have done to Kathy. Not only was she generous in sharing her birds with me, but I was so inspired and excited by her projects I have attempted a few of my own.
I wish I had documented better with photos, but will share a few here-
Here are a some second and third gen Dels, pre cross-
And a few progression shots of the crossed Del-
This is a 9 week old. Early on I began to see the rounded bowl underline on some, and these are the ones I moved forward to grow out-
A cockerel @ 18 weeks (pullet in front was a few weeks younger)-
a different cockerel @ 21 weeks on the left and 25 weeks on the right-
an 18 week old pullet-
This is one of the 1/2 BR 1/2 Del pullets I have used for the next phase-
They surprisingly started laying at 5 months also, and the pullet eggs were larger than BR hen eggs.
This is one of my youngest, pictured here at 6 months. Tail barring is not very good, but I am hoping he will add tail spread and width to the next generation of pullets-
They continue to be a work in progress and are at times frustrating, but mostly I am having FUN and enjoying the process.
Last edited:
@cpartist ... Thank you so much for sharing all of this! I think your Dels look pretty amazing. I would LOVE to have birds maturing as fast as yours.
You are tackling so many of the issues we've discussed here (and discussed, and discussed), so your experience is invaluable.
I'm hoping you stick around through hatching season ... and beyond.
I'm still waffling on picking breeders for breeding season. Have yet to taste a single Del and those guys are getting pretty old!
You are tackling so many of the issues we've discussed here (and discussed, and discussed), so your experience is invaluable.
I'm hoping you stick around through hatching season ... and beyond.
I'm still waffling on picking breeders for breeding season. Have yet to taste a single Del and those guys are getting pretty old!
This is one of my youngest, pictured here at 6 months. Tail barring is not very good, but I am hoping he will add tail spread and width to the next generation of pullets-
From the top down I love him, and he has such pretty white fluff! And orange legs. People struggle to keep the legs orange.
So I've been following a discussion of "line breeding" elsewhere, and someone made the point that when breeding close family relationships, one tends to lose size.
This leads me to believe keeping around some oversized birds for breeding size back into a line is wise even if the big birds' weight isn't strictly the standard description.
This leads me to believe keeping around some oversized birds for breeding size back into a line is wise even if the big birds' weight isn't strictly the standard description.
finnfur
Songster
Great information and thanks for joining us- we hope you will stay and we all can learn together.
since your line seems to be maturing faster what age do you feel is right to cull for meat purposes and do you have a average weight for dressed cockerels .
I have not dressed out any. I don't have a problem with it and have done some in the past, it is just a time thing, as well as a freezer space issue. We raise our own pork, as well as having a big garden and lots of venison and fish. When I do process, I find it easier to do a bunch at a time because the set up and clean up is half the work. I actually have people buying my cull cockerels for meat. The earliest I have live weighed was a 13 week old that felt particularly heavy and he was spot on 5lbs. So he would have been a nice fryer.
Ijon just sent me an email saying he had done some 12 week olds and that they were not CornishX, but had a good amount of meat. Maybe he will check in with some weights.
Regarding the yellow legs.....For years I had issues with pale legs in my yellow legged breeds. I was feeding a Game Bird and could not range them on grass. I switched to Southern States Rock n Rooster last year, and it has made a world of difference. It has Marigold extract. I start them off with SS Start n Grow mixed with Meat Bird Maker. The Meat Bird has marigold, the Starter does not, but has the animal protein the MBM lacks.
Ijon just sent me an email saying he had done some 12 week olds and that they were not CornishX, but had a good amount of meat. Maybe he will check in with some weights.
Regarding the yellow legs.....For years I had issues with pale legs in my yellow legged breeds. I was feeding a Game Bird and could not range them on grass. I switched to Southern States Rock n Rooster last year, and it has made a world of difference. It has Marigold extract. I start them off with SS Start n Grow mixed with Meat Bird Maker. The Meat Bird has marigold, the Starter does not, but has the animal protein the MBM lacks.
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