Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[Zanna]

Before I took birds to a show I went to several others to observe. I asked several long term breeder/show people about their quarantine procedures. Most said they used to (years back) quarantine for a week or two upon return and now just put the birds right back out with the flock. They felt that they were breeding healthy hardy stock and that they were comfortable there would not be and had not been any issues over the years. There are a few I spoke with who take some individual birds to many shows and their birds are for the most part in permanent quarantine.

You need to do what you are comfortable with. Three week quarantine is your safest bet but that takes extra pens/cages that are isolated. If you are willing to risk losses it is certainly easier to just return your birds to the flock. My personal opinion is that in a show situation or a trade/borrow of a bird from someone you know well/trust, and have been to their place several times and can see that their birds are healthy, the risk would be minimal. A small county fair, swap or auction I would be much more cautious. Again, JMO

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I think people might be wondering about me loaning PapaDel to Zanna. Considering I got him from her and we have very similar flock management practices that include free-ranging our breeders, and live in the same zone and visit each other's properties ... I think any energy spent stressing over how "safe" it is to share him would be a waste. He is one of the F4s, so has already visited three different poultry farms that let the birds mingle with nature. She'll examine him when she gets here ...

I am aware that "something" could happen. I consider that part of the realities of farming. Maybe especially of the type of low-tech poultry farming I want to do. I think the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks. I think putting him with the nice females over at Zanna's is a better use of him than keeping him here with my less-nice females. I think it will be good for the line, but time might prove otherwise.

I understand it is "safer" to lock the birds indoors, surrounded by a toxic moat to kill any other living things within a certain radius, and have shower & bleach baths for all employees, supplies and equipment brought over the moat, including wardrobes. That's how industrial farming does it. But that's just not how I wish to operate -- I can't afford the setup that would take, for one thing. And anything less than that is wheel-spinning to some degree.

That doesn't mean I have an anything goes attitude. I've been to one swap and did see a few birds there I didn't think it was wise to touch. Most of the birds were gorgeous!

If I was bringing a valuable started bird here from an entirely new source I'd put it in a place where it would have a fence between it and my current birds for a while, but probably more so it could gradually get acclimated to my cooties and pooticules than for fear it would sicken my flock. That's what I did with PapaDel and his two females when I brought them here 15-ish months ago (and the three other "started" birds that were brought to this property). All other birds here were bought as day-olds, or they hatched here.

Of course even chicks or hatching eggs can bring diseases with them.

 

[finnfur]

I think people might be wondering about me loaning PapaDel to Zanna.

Not me LOL

He is one of the F4s, so has already visited three different poultry farms that let the birds mingle with nature. She'll examine him when she gets here ..
Gee this guy is popular

Just kidding Leslie

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Not me LOL

He is one of the F4s, so has already visited three different poultry farms that let the birds mingle with nature. She'll examine him when she gets here ..
Gee this guy is popular

Just kidding Leslie

Well, he is pretty handsome.

 

[finnfur]

Well, he is pretty handsome.

What is "mingling with nature" ? Is that a nudist camp for chickens ?

 

[caychris]

Im interested in this idea of using an outside male for improved genetics

A friend of mine purchased a young cockerel from me last year because I couldn't have him in town. He says he has turned into a very nice bird. I also purchased a couple of Kims culls which seem really nice except for the coloring.

My friend and I are planning on having my birds bred to the cockerel I sold him over this spring. Im going to have to take the girls to him so that will probably disrupt their laying.

Since they will probably be quarantined for several weeks after the move. Im thinking they will probably be there most of the summer and we will try and hatch as many eggs as possible once they are together and laying and probably bring them back about the time they will likely go into molt in the fall. I know that plans are all up to the birds cooperating but I think its the best plan I can come up with at the moment.

I know it would probably be better to just have the male join the girls but the spacing situation is such that its not possible now. I'm also planning on using my best Hatchery girls as well so I can get some comparison data and increase some genetic diversity. (I have a couple from Privett hatchery that are not too terrible to start with) My hatchery birds lay like champs so Im hoping to improve on their bodies a bit by breeding them to the cockerel.

I'm hoping to get some good data and hopefully some really good young cockerels and pullets for next year.

 

[KittieChick]

I think people might be wondering about me loaning PapaDel to Zanna. Considering I got him from her and we have very similar flock management practices that include free-ranging our breeders, and live in the same zone and visit each other's properties ... I think any energy spent stressing over how "safe" it is to share him would be a waste. He is one of the F4s, so has already visited three different poultry farms that let the birds mingle with nature. She'll examine him when she gets here ...

I am aware that "something" could happen. I consider that part of the realities of farming. Maybe especially of the type of low-tech poultry farming I want to do. I think the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks. I think putting him with the nice females over at Zanna's is a better use of him than keeping him here with my less-nice females. I think it will be good for the line, but time might prove otherwise.

I understand it is "safer" to lock the birds indoors, surrounded by a toxic moat to kill any other living things within a certain radius, and have shower & bleach baths for all employees, supplies and equipment brought over the moat, including wardrobes. That's how industrial farming does it. But that's just not how I wish to operate -- I can't afford the setup that would take, for one thing. And anything less than that is wheel-spinning to some degree.

That doesn't mean I have an anything goes attitude. I've been to one swap and did see a few birds there I didn't think it was wise to touch. Most of the birds were gorgeous!

If I was bringing a valuable started bird here from an entirely new source I'd put it in a place where it would have a fence between it and my current birds for a while, but probably more so it could gradually get acclimated to my cooties and pooticules than for fear it would sicken my flock. That's what I did with PapaDel and his two females when I brought them here 15-ish months ago (and the three other "started" birds that were brought to this property). All other birds here were bought as day-olds, or they hatched here.

Of course even chicks or hatching eggs can bring diseases with them.

That's EXACTLY what I was wondering about. I have always thought that my animals are as healthy as they can be, they run, I keep the yard clean, etc. but being new to chickeneering, I find that I sometimes suspend my common sense. I'm also getting started with Dorkings, another genetic pool challenged breed. Sending the best cocks around just makes sense, but I didn't want to commit heresy. I rather like PapaDel. Too bad we can't do AI with chickens! Thank you Leslie and Zanna.

 

[xoxocammyxoxo]

I believe thats way over standard for a Delaware - but its big They are nicely marked and there is some interesting info on website http://eightacresfarm.weebly.com/breeding-projects.html "[COLOR=45342E]I have already used a 1/2 New Hampshire 1/2 Barred Rock cock bird over my Delawares to improve type and color. I crossed those back to the Del again and am now hatching improved 7/8 Dels that have the Del phenotype. Next side project with these is to use 1/2 Del 1/2 BR pullets (pictured at 17 weeks) to aim for better barring and the stay white gene to keep them from getting brassy from sun and age."[/COLOR]

I have been asked by several people about my Delawares, so I will share some background here. I got started with them in 2010. I found a local woman that was raising them for meat and had been selecting breeders based on weight for several years. The result was a large and early maturing bird with high egg production but one that was not bred specifically to meet SOP standards. My goal has been to keep the excellent production traits but also have them bred to the Standard. In 2011 I swapped chicks with my friend Kathy Bonham and received some of her awesome NHs and BRs. She had just acquired them to start the Delaware recreation project. She was looking for partners in the project but at the time I did not feel I had the resources to dedicate to it. I continued to keep in touch and follow her progress and liked what I saw very much. In the meantime I was enjoying the BRs and NHs in their own right and was learning about the characteristics and traits of those breeds. I felt my progress was slow going on improving the Delaware using the stock I had on hand. Doing the pure Delaware recreation was still daunting to me in terms of the hatching involved. I am not sure if you guys are aware, but in her first F1 cross, her odds were 1 in 84 to get a useable female. I think she ended up with 2 females out of 116 to go forward with. THAT is dedication. I started to wonder if there could be a shortcut to that process and if the NH and BR could be used in a way that would incorporate some of those good genes yet also retain the characteristics I wanted to retain from the Delaware. I had come to learn that while the NHs were fairly productive and early maturing, the BRs were not. The BRs were not coming into lay until 10 months old, or later. Once laying they were not very prolific layers of smaller eggs than you would expect from such large birds. In addition, they are slow to mature so are not an efficient meat bird. My pure Dels have always started to lay at 20-22 weeks and mature quickly enough to be ready to process while young enough to be tender. To this end I did the same cross as Kathy did to make the F1s….BR over NH hens. So the root of this project started with the same linage as those of you with Kathy’s Dels. Instead of crossing the F1s together though, I put the best F1 male over Del hens. All those chicks hatched black, but were split for recessive white. I again put the best male over pure Del and hatched roughly 50/50 black and yellow chicks. I just kept the yellow to go forward with and that is where I am at now, with a ¾ Del, 1/8 BR, 1/8 NH genotype that look like Del phenotype. They are all under a year, so I am not sure they will be as good at laying through the winter as the pure Del who take about 6 weeks off to molt, then get back to business. However, all of the cross Dels have started laying at 19-22 weeks. I was actually hoping the cross would slow them down a bit and give their bodies more time to mature before onset, but that did not happen. In terms of the differences in type and development, I am seeing a bit better tail angle and breast roundness. Growth wise they seem to be on par with the pure Del weight wise, but are not as tall or long and the weight comes from a fuller breast and more width. 6 months is when I do a benchmark weight on everyone and both the before and after Dels are averaging 5 ¾ lbs for pullets and 8lbs for cockerels at that age. The result is an over standard bird weight wise by a year old, but I am really interested in having a good alternative to the CornishX with these and the size will give me some leeway as I work on color and type, in terms of size not being as much of a selection factor. I am still not getting the nice spread tails in the pullets that you guys with the recreation are getting. That will be a focus going forward, and I think I have a cockerel that will help. The crossed birds seem to have a little more feather than the originals. As a result they look a little bigger than they actually are. The opposite was true of the originals. To my disappointment, the cross has not improved feather quality as I hoped it would. I think the tail feathers are a bit wider, but the body feathers fray and get raggedy as the mating season progresses. They do not age and wear well. I often say that my Del hens who can look quite nice as pullets look like rode hard and put away wet hens. I am seeing many of the same issues that I had before the cross and some of the same as those of you with the recreation line. The one difference is that mine tend to be undercolored rather than overcolored. I have been culling for the Columbian striping and now the hackle barring is too faint. I am getting the yellowing with age and recently had to cull an otherwise promising male for slipped wing. I am continuing to get greenish legs in about the same % as before….20%. These are always pullets and I cull for this when it shows, at about 3 weeks. I think my males are better than females at this point and this is partly due to not having as many pullets to select for after the leg color cull. At this point all my Dels are the ¾ projects, except for one pure hen. My next step going forward is to dabble with some pure BR crossed to the Del projects, and pure NH crossed to the Del. I have some juvies growing out of these crosses, but it is too early to see if they will help. In the BR cross, I am hoping to eliminate the yellowing as BRs are supposed to carry the stay white gene. I am hoping also that I will get better barring on the hackles and in the male tails. I am hoping the NH will improve the female tail. I am using a Del cockerel over the NH hens and just keeping the pullets. Reason being the reverse will result in gold females as they can only inherit one copy of either Gold or Silver from the sire, and obviously we want them to be Silver based. Delaware’s are a challenge. I have great admiration for those of you working on Kathy’s line and am so happy to see the dedication to continuing her good work. I have taken a different path, but really owe anything good I have done to Kathy. Not only was she generous in sharing her birds with me, but I was so inspired and excited by her projects I have attempted a few of my own. I wish I had documented better with photos, but will share a few here- Here are a some second and third gen Dels, pre cross- And a few progression shots of the crossed Del- This is a 9 week old. Early on I began to see the rounded bowl underline on some, and these are the ones I moved forward to grow out- A cockerel @ 18 weeks (pullet in front was a few weeks younger)- a different cockerel @ 21 weeks on the left and 25 weeks on the right- an 18 week old pullet- This is one of the 1/2 BR 1/2 Del pullets I have used for the next phase- They surprisingly started laying at 5 months also, and the pullet eggs were larger than BR hen eggs. This is one of my youngest, pictured here at 6 months. Tail barring is not very good, but I am hoping he will add tail spread and width to the next generation of pullets- They continue to be a work in progress and are at times frustrating, but mostly I am having FUN and enjoying the process.

Yay I found the Delaware thread! I quoted these two posts because I had once considered the breeding project mentioned about five years ago and was told I was trying to recreate the wheel. Seeing that someone else had done it makes me want to consider doing it again obviously not right now. I'm not in a place big enough for that. I do have a couple of concerns doing that kind of breeding recreation project. I want to work with the heritage conservation program and I don't know if recreating would create birds that would be counted in thier numbers. Which brings me to my second concern. At what point would people consider them as "Delawares" and not just recreated birds? HAHA, the thought just popped in my head. Coach and knock off coach. I would like to show birds. I miss showing animals but I have a lot of interest in conservation and the importance of heritage birds. I also noticed the club is gone, has interest dropped that much?

 

[finnfur]

There is a thread on the recreated line by Kathyinmo - and yes they would be considered Delaware.
They were created the same way as the original was in late 40S / early 50's.
No one seems to be able to keep the club going and I understand there is a Facebook club
but I don't do face book

Here is the re-created link

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/777172/delawares-from-kathyinmo

 

[capayvalleychick]

I want to work with the heritage conservation program and I don't know if recreating would create birds that would be counted in thier numbers. Which brings me to my second concern. At what point would people consider them as "Delawares" and not just recreated birds?

Which heritage conservation program? You should probably ask them if recreated birds would be counted.

With chickens, phenotype is often as important as genotype.

Genotype is the genetic makeup of the bird. Phenotype is what you see, when you look at the bird.

If a cross between a Barred Rock and a New Hampshire produces a bird that meets the SOP for the Delaware breed - that bird IS a Delaware. The SOP -the phenotype- defines whether or not the bird is a Delaware.

If you are going to be breeding Delawares, the genotype is important.
If you have multiple lines or breeds (a broad mixture of genes), your breeding results will vary widely. The results will be less offspring that are phenotypical Delawares.

Actually, even breeding poor quality Delawares can produce similar results. If the results don't meet the standard for the breed, then the offspring are not Delawares, no matter what you used to produce them.

So, the best way to produce true Delawares in the most consistent way, long term, would be to breed Delawares with phenotype and common genotype.

JMO ... Once the majority of the offspring that you are producing are close to the SOP for the Delaware breed, you can count yourself as a Delaware breeder.