Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[LeslieDJoyce]

Tee hee!!!  My husband just rescued (stole) a rusty one from the neighbors yard, cured it with peanut oil, made a loaf of no-knead artisan bread and gave it back to him.  The pot just appeared back in our shop.  I think he wants a re-fill

That's SO awesome. I'm totally addicted to that bread now. Oh my! I'm a baker! Who knew that would happen! Love my pot so much I bought a bulk bag of Bob's Red Mill artisan bread flour to feed it.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Well aint you the cats meow lOL !
Ok read page 135 and ready for test
However we need to know if the specks for the Rock are same as for Del - awaiting for some expert opin

Not sure the is better the book used was yellow

It's lots better, IMO. Might be even better if it were white paper, but the illustrations are surprisingly crisp.

One of the "little disappointments" I have with my recently-received 2010 edition of the SOP is that the illustrations are muddied. A couple of them I literally cannot tell what's the subject of the illustration ... It looks like somewhere along the way they lost the originals, so are several generations into copies of copies at this point.

In the book at the link many of the illustrations are "the same" as what has been reproduced into the 2010 version of the SOP, but they are MUCH more clear to my eye. This is going to be super helpful to me as I need all the help I can get when it comes to seeing stuff.

Someone had recommended this antique Rock standard book to me a while back but I was too busy to take a look. I'll for sure be taking a close look now.

Test is on the whole book.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

The caution against the length was a reference to guarding against the Rock type. You would not want excessively short birds either. They are not NHs. Does that make any sense?

Longer, taller frames require more time for developing. The frame comes first, and the flesh follows.

Schilling, had a better eye and understanding of the Delaware.

Get familiar with the Standard for the Rock and NH. Note the similarities, and subtle differences. You might notice how close the Standard is for both the NH and Delaware. The description is nearly identical less a few details.

Maybe that would be a good discussion. The language used in the Standard, and how it compares to the two parent breeds.

How the birds were used, and what made them suitable for this purpose is helpful in "seeing" it.

I like this idea.

Well aint you the cats meow lOL !
Ok read page 135 and ready for test
However we need to know if the specks for the Rock are same as for Del - awaiting for some expert opin

Not sure the is better the book used was yellow

Inexpert Opinion Here.

Comparing the written description of the Plymouth Rock, New Hampshire & Delaware from the American Standard of Perfection 2010 edition ... excluding the "good stuff" from the front of the book ... excluding history & economic qualities ... excluding color. Points awarded for which of the two parent breeds is described most similarly to the Delaware.

Males Only.

Size: New Hampshire & Delaware described identically. Point to NH.

Combs: NHs & Del described identically ... Point to NH.

Beaks: NH & Dels described identically ...Point NH

Face: All 3 very similar, but because the NH & Del are described identically in one important detail ... Point NH

Eyes: PR & Del described identically ... Point PR

Wattles: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Ear-Lobes: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Head: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

(I think even I am getting the idea of what's going on here ...

)

Neck: NH & Del nearly identical ... Point NH

Back: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Tail: each breed has a different tail angle, with the Del splitting the difference ... No Point

Wings: Del described more simply than the other two, but NH & Del wings should be the same size ... Point NH

Breast: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Body & Fluff: Hmmmm. The fluff of all 3 is described identically. For shape, the Del splits the difference between the longer PR and shorter NH ... No Point

Legs & Toes: One important similarity between NH & Dels ... Point NH

Plumage: Only described for the NH ... No Point

Conclusion: The size & shape of the male Delaware is supposed to be very much like the male New Hampshire, with the NH being slightly shorter and with a slightly higher tail than the Del. Otherwise, why bother?

As for the illustrations ... I'm not sure those are doing a very good job of telling the story of how the shapes of these three breeds should be different.

This has been a weird exercise for me.

 

[finnfur]

Inexpert Opinion Here.

Comparing the written description of the Plymouth Rock, New Hampshire & Delaware from the American Standard of Perfection 2010 edition ... excluding the "good stuff" from the front of the book ... excluding history & economic qualities ... excluding color. Points awarded for which of the two parent breeds is described most similarly to the Delaware.

Males Only.

Size: New Hampshire & Delaware described identically. Point to NH.

Combs: NHs & Del described identically ... Point to NH.

Beaks: NH & Dels described identically ...Point NH

Face: All 3 very similar, but because the NH & Del are described identically in one important detail ... Point NH

Eyes: PR & Del described identically ... Point PR

Wattles: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Ear-Lobes: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Head: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

(I think even I am getting the idea of what's going on here ...

)

Neck: NH & Del nearly identical ... Point NH

Back: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Tail: each breed has a different tail angle, with the Del splitting the difference ... No Point

Wings: Del described more simply than the other two, but NH & Del wings should be the same size ... Point NH

Breast: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Body & Fluff: Hmmmm. The fluff of all 3 is described identically. For shape, the Del splits the difference between the longer PR and shorter NH ... No Point

Legs & Toes: One important similarity between NH & Dels ... Point NH

Plumage: Only described for the NH ... No Point

Conclusion: The size & shape of the male Delaware is supposed to be very much like the male New Hampshire, with the NH being slightly shorter and with a slightly higher tail than the Del. Otherwise, why bother?

As for the illustrations ... I'm not sure those are doing a very good job of telling the story of how the shapes of these three breeds should be different.

This has been a weird exercise for me.

You get a A+ on that homework assignment.
OK the size of the Cock Del should be in between the two - That true of the hen also ?
Now wish I had over head shot of NH hens - the good, bad and ugly to compare.

 

[Zanna]

You get a A+ on that homework assignment.
OK the size of the Cock Del should be in between the two - That true of the hen also ?
Now wish I had over head shot of NH hens - the good, bad and ugly to compare.

I can try to get a few this weekend, no promises though. It is supposed to pour like crazy, 1 - 2 inches yet today is sunny and feels like a lovely spring day!

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

You get a A+ on that homework assignment.
OK the size of the Cock Del should be in between the two - That true of the hen also ? 
Now wish I had over head shot of NH hens - the good, bad and ugly to compare.

The weights of the male Delawares & New Hampshires (both cock & cockerel) are the same, but the Delaware is a tad longer with a slightly lower tail. (The PR is heavier, longer, and has a lower tail ... also it isn't described to be as full in the chest, so I'd expect more bird out back than in front ...?)

Possibly the slightly lower tail of the Delaware compared to the New Hampshire accounts for the description of extra length in the Del without requiring extra weight???

The antique Rock book explains one considers all descriptions of size in the SOP within the context of the individual bird. So ... a "Moderately Large" body part is compared to the rest of the bird's own body and not compared to an abstract measurement or ruler.

I haven't done the flipping to compare the females of all three breeds, but I presume it will break down much the same.

How that compares to the four top views of the females from the old book? Maybe a female Delaware bird where the rectangle is a tad more compact? Shorter than #1, not as shaggy as #4?

 

[gjensen]

Inexpert Opinion Here.

Comparing the written description of the Plymouth Rock, New Hampshire & Delaware from the American Standard of Perfection 2010 edition ... excluding the "good stuff" from the front of the book ... excluding history & economic qualities ... excluding color. Points awarded for which of the two parent breeds is described most similarly to the Delaware.

Males Only.

Size: New Hampshire & Delaware described identically. Point to NH.

Combs: NHs & Del described identically ... Point to NH.

Beaks: NH & Dels described identically ...Point NH

Face: All 3 very similar, but because the NH & Del are described identically in one important detail ... Point NH

Eyes: PR & Del described identically ... Point PR

Wattles: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Ear-Lobes: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Head: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

(I think even I am getting the idea of what's going on here ...

)

Neck: NH & Del nearly identical ... Point NH

Back: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Tail: each breed has a different tail angle, with the Del splitting the difference ... No Point

Wings: Del described more simply than the other two, but NH & Del wings should be the same size ... Point NH

Breast: NH & Del described identically ... Point NH

Body & Fluff: Hmmmm. The fluff of all 3 is described identically. For shape, the Del splits the difference between the longer PR and shorter NH ... No Point

Legs & Toes: One important similarity between NH & Dels ... Point NH

Plumage: Only described for the NH ... No Point

Conclusion: The size & shape of the male Delaware is supposed to be very much like the male New Hampshire, with the NH being slightly shorter and with a slightly higher tail than the Del. Otherwise, why bother?

As for the illustrations ... I'm not sure those are doing a very good job of telling the story of how the shapes of these three breeds should be different.

This has been a weird exercise for me.

I like comparing breeds within a class. Some of the terminology is subjective, so when dealing with the more rare breeds, it is helpful to compare them to more established breeds. Looking at what is common between them, and what separates them. I did this to help me establish in my mind, the proper station of a Catalana etc. There are traits, and tendencies that are common within a class. Many of the Mediterranean's have higher stations, larger combs, tighter feathering, more dramatic tails, etc.

I also found this idea helpful when reading older poultry books. Some of our rare breeds are not mentioned in them, but there is plenty that would apply when properly understood. I have picked up on some tips on breeding the color of the NH by paying attention to Reds, and Buff varieties. These two colors have some fundamental similarities. Similarly, breeding the Delaware color can have some similarities with the Columbian variety. There are differences of course, but a lot can be used to help understand the color when the differences are understood.

There is a slight difference between the Del, and NH concerning the length of the back. The NH is described as "medium length". The Del is described as "moderately long" (a little longer than medium, LOL). Compared to the Rock that is described as "rather long". By comparison, I came to the conclusion that the Del would be intermediate between the two. The slight difference in the length of back, and tail angle should be the two main type differences.

The terms (in the Standard) are subjective and relative to what they are compared to. This does leave some room for interpretation, and even creativity. This room does allow for some freedom of expression, and allows for some breeder preference. Particularly in the less established breeds. This freedom should not be an excuse. Our choices should be intelligent, and purposeful. Never merely that I like this or that, or we breed something different altogether (or should).

However, there are some anchors. The description under economic qualities describes what the bird is known for. For example the Dels are said to be "excellent", as broilers etc. Birds that are tall, and long, and are heavy, have big frames. Birds flesh out after the frame is established before they begin their more gradual growth towards their finish. Big frames take more time to develop, and time is relevant to the use as a broiler etc. Of course anything could have been used as a broiler, but what gave the NH and Del an advantage over their counterparts in their day? What made them so important that they were popular in breed crosses?

The Standard weights are an anchor of sorts, and to me relevant. Especially when comparing breeds, and breed type. Without weight as an anchor, the bird becomes something else altogether. Plymouth Rocks become more like Jersey Giants, and Dels (and NHs) become more like Rocks etc. An example of weight as an anchor could be that though the Del is described just a bit longer than the NH, but their weight being identical, what does that say for their type differences? It can't be identical, being longer, but having the same weight.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I can try to get a few this weekend, no promises though.  It is supposed to pour like crazy, 1 - 2 inches yet today is sunny and feels like a lovely spring day!

Your NHs are nice and regular, so this is a fabulous assignment for you. Too bad you don't work with PRs, too.

 

[gjensen]

You get a A+ on that homework assignment.
OK the size of the Cock Del should be in between the two - That true of the hen also ?
Now wish I had over head shot of NH hens - the good, bad and ugly to compare.

You would want an overview of an ideal NH. Do not establish for yourself anything other than what would be ideal. It would be a mistake to do otherwise. You do not want to use average NHs as a guide. We have better NHs than what has been seen in some time, and there is a lot to recommend them, but they are not where they should be. Before the import, NHs were in the same boat as the Delaware. If not worse.

 

[gjensen]

I understand- having the same problem LOL
I wonder if something like this would help us - its for plymouth rock but what are the differences in what we are looking for ?
How about some expert opins here:


I have been looking for # 4 to breed and should be looking for #1 - I have no idea where I got this but found it informative
wish I had a clear copy

This is as useful of an illustration that you will get. Even for Delaware. The fundamentals are the same. 1 being close to ideal. 2 broad at the shoulders but too much taper, lacking capacity. 3 being narrow, and lacks constitution. 4 leans more towards an Orpington type, and is excessively loose feathered bird.

The difference would be the length of back, and that the Del would have just a touch more width compared to the length. The Del is not big, but compact and solid. Judge length and depth by the profile, and width and capacity from an overhead view. Picture the Schilling birds in this view.