Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[ArnoldsLane]

Kim,

I should have clarified. I was wondering if it would be best to seek another Delaware rooster from a second source, as opposed to the one that was shipped with my girls. Basically, I am trying to avoid mating a brother to a sister from the same clutch. My Delaware flock will be a separate entity with a separate portion of the coop and yard. I am shooting for a pure strain of Delaware chickens. The Barred Rocks I got because, well, they look cool. They are only for eggs. The other cockerels have a beautiful, organic, yet brief life ahead of them. No breeding for them.

Others have explained that inbreeding isn't too big a concern because the hatchery I ordered from probably had a ton to choose from.

Right now, the plan is to get them all happy and ranging around (post-snow melt) and choose the best hens. I will just watch the rooster to see if he is breeding-worthy. I am not going for show quality, I am going for healthy physique, and healthy behavior. I don't think it will be super difficult, just want to make sure my gene pool is bigger than the family swimmin' hole.

Thanks

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Kim,

I should have clarified. I was wondering if it would be best to seek another Delaware rooster from a second source, as opposed to the one that was shipped with my girls. Basically, I am trying to avoid mating a brother to a sister from the same clutch. My Delaware flock will be a separate entity with a separate portion of the coop and yard. I am shooting for a pure strain of Delaware chickens. The Barred Rocks I got because, well, they look cool. They are only for eggs. The other cockerels have a beautiful, organic, yet brief life ahead of them. No breeding for them.

Others have explained that inbreeding isn't too big a concern because the hatchery I ordered from probably had a ton to choose from.

Right now, the plan is to get them all happy and ranging around (post-snow melt) and choose the best hens. I will just watch the rooster to see if he is breeding-worthy. I am not going for show quality, I am going for healthy physique, and healthy behavior. I don't think it will be super difficult, just want to make sure my gene pool is bigger than the family swimmin' hole.

Thanks

I'm pretty sure that what Kim is saying is that you should NOT introduce a male from another line.

If I'm remembering correctly (and I can't find a link to prove it) Blosl does NOT mention using "outside" genes in your line breeding program. He DOES explain how to cross different generations of the same line to maximize the progress of the breeding program.

 

[caychris]

Kim do you remember the Cock that you sold Neil what was he F4 or F5?

 

[finnfur]

Ms Lesliedjoyce
I have a technical question, If you breed your F4 Cock to a F5 Hen what do you have ? A F5-1/2 or F6 ?????

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Ms Lesliedjoyce
I have a technical question, If you breed your F4 Cock to a F5 Hen what do you have ? A F5-1/2 or F6  ?????

You're funny and I don't know the technical answer.

I'm going to call all the chicks I hatch this year F6 as at least one of their parents will be F5.

Come to think of it, I don't actually know how the first 4 generations of the line I'm working with were created ... I don't know if my trio of F4s were full siblings, or not.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

RATZ! I should have just written "Chicks! You have chicks!"

 

[finnfur]

From breeder Bob Blosl
"Kathy do not cross any barred rocks to the three trios that you got from Nebraska. If you do the Gods from Plymouth Rock heven will strike lighting onto your incubator. If you ever need to cross new blood you go back to Frank or Jerimie in Nebraska. If you out cross this line you will loose everything that has been built over the last fifty years. Stay with what you have and just try to tie a not on the end of the rope and hang on to what you got."

"Be patient and dont cross stains and like Charlie the secret is to get a buddy or two and then every four or five years swap birds or rotate your breeders to the right as I ex planed in my line breeding article I wrote for another web site. Out crossing can bring in undesirable traits"

"you are so correct on having two or three people having your birds and hoping and praying they stick with it for many years. This way you can go back to one of them and get a male or female cross the bird back to your line and get yourself a fresh shot of blood. This way and this is the breeding secret of Rhode Island Reds in my view is dont cross strains for fresh blood."

"I am not much of a fan of crossing lines as it opens up the back door for pesty faults than can drive you nuts."

Kim - as usual great information from you.

You have reminded me that I really miss Bobs posts - glad he posted a lot or we would have lost a wealth of chicken breeding information- RIP
Thanks for the post

 

[capayvalleychick]

I'm pretty sure that what Kim is saying is that you should NOT introduce a male from another line.

If I'm remembering correctly (and I can't find a link to prove it) Blosl does NOT mention using "outside" genes in your line breeding program. He DOES explain how to cross different generations of the same line to maximize the progress of the breeding program.

That's correct.
Here's one of Bob's articles and there are links to others. Much of what he says can be used with any breed. http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id60.html

Kim do you remember the Cock that you sold Neil what was he F4 or F5?

All F5s. I offered him some F4s, but he didn't want them.

Kim - as usual great information from you.

You have reminded me that I really miss Bobs posts - glad he posted a lot or we would have lost a wealth of chicken breeding information- RIP
Thanks for the post

 

[gjensen]

In general, the advice not to cross strains is good advice. It would be a good way for a beginner to wreck a line. Not to mention that there is some value in the integrity of a good line or strain.

That is not to say that there is not occasion to do the contrary. On occasion, there is. One example is the strain that most have here. They are more than the result of crossed strains. They are the result of crossed breeds.
I would agree that it is worth mentioning that no new beginner should cross strains for the sake of improving "genetics" (I do not know what improving genetics means.), or a concern with "genetic diversity". How can we tell if they are too inbred if they have not even been raised up, and the next generation grown out?

Most of the good breeders will bring something new in (even unrelated), at some point. It is possible to breed them too close. It is also possible that a particular characteristic needed for improvement is not available in the existing line or strain. If the characteristic is strong in a different line of the same strain, then all is well. Otherwise, a breeder may decide that crossing strains is necessary to move forward.
Then it is done cautiously. Anyone that has worked with something a period of time, and has made consistent progress does not want to risk their work to the unknowns. It is commonly recommended to introduce the new bird on the female side, using one of your own males in an initial side mating. Then adding a pullet or two to a family etc. This hypothetical or some other variation of it is based on emphasizing caution, and limiting the influence of the new bird. Preserving the integrity of the original line.
A flock that needs radical improvement might be better off with using a new male if one could be had that is from a much better background.

With the above scenario, it is still important to advise new people not to cross strains. Especially if what they have is of any quality. It takes multiple generations for anyone to get to know what they have, and that is especially true for someone that is only beginning to know what they are even looking at. A haphazard cross is blasphemy to some because it almost guarantees poor results, and years of breeding out "the bad again". It may be one of the fastest and surest ways to ruin a good line in the hands of a beginner. For those of us that are beginners, we always think we know more than we do. Always. It is not always what we do know that gets us into trouble. It is what we do not know, and we cannot know what that is until we do.

We cannot possibly know what a line needs, or what variability there is to select from until we have grown out multiple generations. So why even bother with the idea of crossing strains until you have been convinced by the evidence that it is necessary? Some one new should instead focus on learning the art of selection, and working on improving what they already have.

Bob's, and other's advice, that went along with this was to stay away from anything that was not already in good shape. His advice was based on the idea that the quality of the hypothetical flock was very high. Reconstruction efforts are another topic all together. Bob recommended potential new breeders to stay away from such projects, and this to, was good advice.

To the mention of brother/sister mating. It is not as taboo as some make it out to be. It might instead be considered a tool. Initially the offspring will be no more inbred than a father/daughter mating etc. In a line that is already very close, the results would obviously be different than one that was not. Occasionally, one might want to repeat a brother sister mating in order to "set" particular characteristics in a new line. Of course, continually repeating the mating, or in a line that is already too inbred could result in some unhealthy recessives. It would not be considered normal practice, but there might be an occasion where it is acceptable, or even advisable.

Along the way, new breeders learn when to do something, and when not to do something.

In the beginning, just forget about crossing strains and learn to work with what you have. That is after you have purchased the best possible birds you could come up with. Don't throw possibly decades of some one else's work down the drain just because it seams like a good idea. 3, 5, years from now you will know better about what to do. Any decision has to be intelligent, calculated, intentional, and cautious. A lot of time, work, money, thought, and feed has went in to some lines. There is a lot at stake.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Thanks for typing all that up! Especially for us beginners. It's good to be reminded that breeding poultry is a slow process that takes perseverance. And maybe some luck with good timing or proximity.

I'm happy enough to work with what I've got, though I fell into it by being lucky with my timing and proximity. I do sometimes wonder what the alternatives might be for people starting on Delawares. How does one start with good Delawares? I imagine if I didn't have my birds already and I wanted to start with the breed I'd feel frustrated.

It was great to hear from Eight Acre farms recently. That's certainly one alternative!