Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[LeslieDJoyce]

Over at the Delaware Poultry Club United's official FB group page we're starting two member-driven projects. It's a friendly, cooperative, encouraging group, and we'd love everyone to help make these projects as useful as possible to anyone working with Delawares.

The first project ... we'll be starting on this one very soon ... is to develop a pictorial guide for the Delaware SOP which will be a resource/page over at the official Delaware Club's web page. We will assume everyone has the APA's SOP and will not be reposting that description or borrowing any of those illustrations. Instead, we'd like to have decent photographic examples of things like "What should the Delaware neck barring look like?" So we'll need people to supply us with photos we can use. Other breed groups have done similar things, and we believe it can be super helpful to people making choices about what birds to show or breed. Maybe we can even expand the guide to include Bantams, if there are people working with those.

The second project will be to develop an annotated Buyer's Guide for Delawares ... this one might take a bit longer to do well and will require periodic editing. We're often asked, "Where can I find good Delawares?" and of course the answer will depend on what the buyer wants to do with Delawares (show them, use them as pastured meat birds, add one to your backyard laying flock). We're hoping to survey hatchery and private breeders for some details about their "line," and also include some feedback from people who have bought birds from the various sources. We'd love your input about your favorite source(s) for Delawares. And if you're a breeder who can ship chicks/eggs, or even a breeder who is willing to mentor and share birds locally, this is a great way to get the word out about your line. One of the things we are hoping to include in this list is some background information about the history of each line, including where the birds were originally sourced, how many generations they've been bread forward, what other lines/breeds have been crossed in (if any).

Let me know via PM if you'd like to help with these projects, or if you would like to be included in the Buyer's Guide. There will be some redundancy with the guide and the member's list/Breeder's Directory ... the special thing about the Buyer's Guide will be the notes and reviews.

 

[gjensen]

It is just an opinion, but I think the first is a very good idea. I think the second is a bad idea.

The first could be used as a visual aid to assist beginners, if done right.

The second. . . . I do not think a club should get in the business of suggesting to members where they should get there birds. A member's breeder's directory is all that they need.
Not to mention, how do you know which is a better laying strain, meat strain, exhibition strain etc.? You don't. Reputations of this sort, sort themselves out with time. Let people decide for themselves. Do not manipulate their decision making, or their expectations.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

It is just an opinion, but I think the first is a very good idea. I think the second is a bad idea.

The first could be used as a visual aid to assist beginners, if done right.

The second. . . . I do not think a club should get in the business of suggesting to members where they should get there birds. A member's breeder's directory is all that they need.
Not to mention, how do you know which is a better laying strain, meat strain, exhibition strain etc.? You don't. Reputations of this sort, sort themselves out with time. Let people decide for themselves. Do not manipulate their decision making, or their expectations.

I've been in contact with Dr. Brigid McCrea (poultry scientist) who has been a part of a study comparing Delawares to Cornish Cross in a pastured poultry operation (starting with hatchery Delawares), and helps promote a similar study for using Delawares as pastured layers. She says the only reason people will turn to the Delaware club is if we provide egg performance and meat growth rate data. She says she recommends that people buy Delawares for people who want to run profitable meat or egg businesses (the Pastured Heritage Poultry niche market). I'm hoping she can point us the right direction for setting standards for measuring production for people who are looking for Delawares for production purposes.

I'd love to know why she recommends hatchery Delawares over any other hatchery breed ... so I'll ask her that.

Something similar for people looking for "Show Quality" Delawares. If we could gather info from people currently showing Delawares. It would help people get fair warning about how well they do at shows, and the amount of work that might be involved in getting them to do better.

I think it could be very tricky ... the plan is not to endorse any particular source of Delawares, but to have the different sources speak for themselves if they want, and also have customers share their experiences with birds from those sources.

I, personally, get a lot of questions from people looking for "good" Delawares. Then we spend some time: What do you want to do with them? Where do you live? How many do you want? Do you plan to breed them yourself? Will you be selling chicks or hatching eggs? Do you plan to buy fresh chicks every season? Yes, I'm sure I can't mail you a box of chicks. And so on ... I would love to answer with a link.

This is another one of those experiences which is teaching me how totally different people's approaches to the same "problem" can be. I don't know if other breeds have such a diversity of interest as Delawares, or such a lack of information about the current state of the breed.

 

[caychris]

I've been in contact with Dr. Brigid McCrea (poultry scientist) who has been a part of a study comparing Delawares to Cornish Cross in a pastured poultry operation (starting with hatchery Delawares), and helps promote a similar study for using Delawares as pastured layers. She says the only reason people will turn to the Delaware club is if we provide egg performance and meat growth rate data. She says she recommends that people buy Delawares for people who want to run profitable meat or egg businesses (the Pastured Heritage Poultry niche market). I'm hoping she can point us the right direction for setting standards for measuring production for people who are looking for Delawares for production purposes.

I'd love to know why she recommends hatchery Delawares over any other hatchery breed ... so I'll ask her that.

Something similar for people looking for "Show Quality" Delawares. If we could gather info from people currently showing Delawares. It would help people get fair warning about how well they do at shows, and the amount of work that might be involved in getting them to do better.

I think it could be very tricky ... the plan is not to endorse any particular source of Delawares, but to have the different sources speak for themselves if they want, and also have customers share their experiences with birds from those sources.

I, personally, get a lot of questions from people looking for "good" Delawares. Then we spend some time: What do you want to do with them? Where do you live? How many do you want? Do you plan to breed them yourself? Will you be selling chicks or hatching eggs? Do you plan to buy fresh chicks every season? Yes, I'm sure I can't mail you a box of chicks. And so on ... I would love to answer with a link.

This is another one of those experiences which is teaching me how totally different people's approaches to the same "problem" can be. I don't know if other breeds have such a diversity of interest as Delawares, or such a lack of information about the current state of the breed.

I can tell you my hatchery dels tend to be great egg layers and grow out faster than the ones from Kathy's line but my portion of Kathys line I think are lacking the proper genes for the faster growth. I know its a limited population to compare but the difference is as stark as the birds visually. Neal has had similar experience.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I can tell you my hatchery dels tend to be great egg layers and grow out faster than the ones from Kathy's line but my portion of Kathys line I think are lacking the proper genes for the faster growth. I know its a limited population to compare but the difference is as stark as the birds visually. Neal has had similar experience.

Yeah ... mine are pretty slow. But honestly I haven't been tracking it very carefully. I don't know what they weigh at every week, I don't know their live weights on processing day. This year I don't even know when they start laying cuz they aren't in a separate coop. I don't really care. Not yet. I should, but I don't. I've got other breeding goals to think about.

There are plenty of people who look into Delawares because of the legend of the breed ... Industrial Meat Bird pre-4-way hybridization, good winter layers of huge eggs.

I gather the APA is putting more emphasis on market characteristics of breeds in the next edition of the SOP, so having some kinds of consensus about how to measure and share that info would be good.

Right now this is a member-driven project. The club might not want to publish info like that. We haven't asked. We've talked a bit with the club about doing a survey of the breed ... the annotated Buyer's Guide would be an extension of that.

 

[finnfur]

I have heard lots of reports on hatchery and have owned three other lines of Dels. All other lines seem to feather faster and have better egg production. Mostly winter production. But none I have had or seen comparison pictures of dressed compare to the flesh out growth of the Bonham line.
This is a fairly new line and some of the other wants can be breed in or out. Depends on what you want.
Kinda with George on the referrals. I get asked a lot and will try to point people to a near breeder to them but tell them they need to evaluate based on what they need.
If they need more they will learn about their breed and move up in quality later if thats what they want.
We did that and I am happy with the choice even though we bought a few dozen eggs outside this year . Gave them a little rest aster molt with no lights.
They are cranking back up and got 1//2 dozen this week.

 

[caychris]

I have heard lots of reports on hatchery and have owned three other lines of Dels. All other lines seem to feather faster and have better egg production. Mostly winter production. But none I have had or seen comparison pictures of dressed compare to the flesh out growth of the Bonham line.
This is a fairly new line and some of the other wants can be breed in or out. Depends on what you want.
Kinda with George on the referrals. I get asked a lot and will try to point people to a near breeder to them but tell them they need to evaluate based on what they need.
If they need more they will learn about their breed and move up in quality later if thats what they want.
We did that and I am happy with the choice even though we bought a few dozen eggs outside this year . Gave them a little rest aster molt with no lights.
They are cranking back up and got 1//2 dozen this week.

I will agree that Kathys birds really look like Dels to me when compared to hatchery. I would think that since Hatcheries are interested in selling chicks they would need great layers so they would only use birds that are sure to lay well. Which in perpetuating their lines would be increased over time. Since that would be the most important trait others would fall by the way side.

 

[finnfur]

I will agree that Kathys birds really look like Dels to me when compared to hatchery. I would think that since Hatcheries are interested in selling chicks they would need great layers so they would only use birds that are sure to lay well. Which in perpetuating their lines would be increased over time. Since that would be the most important trait others would fall by the way side.

I agree but in my case and some others the quantity need doesn't override the table need for quality.
Its not there but I see the potential for both. I believe that this line can get to table fare in 12>13 weeks.
That will never replace the cornish cross but they are not dual purpose.
But it will take a few more generations - Kathy always said this was a unfinished project.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I haven't tried it so I don't know, but in order to breed a missing quality into a line of birds, you need to find it. Knowing what lines have what qualities (desirable and undesirable) would really help, I'd think. It isn't like you can walk up and down the rows of Delawares at your local show reading the cards, trading birds, and discussing breeding tips. So I'm not fully understanding the negativity toward the idea of having a place online to do the looking.

 

[gjensen]

I've been in contact with Dr. Brigid McCrea (poultry scientist) who has been a part of a study comparing Delawares to Cornish Cross in a pastured poultry operation (starting with hatchery Delawares), and helps promote a similar study for using Delawares as pastured layers. She says the only reason people will turn to the Delaware club is if we provide egg performance and meat growth rate data. She says she recommends that people buy Delawares for people who want to run profitable meat or egg businesses (the Pastured Heritage Poultry niche market). I'm hoping she can point us the right direction for setting standards for measuring production for people who are looking for Delawares for production purposes.

I'd love to know why she recommends hatchery Delawares over any other hatchery breed ... so I'll ask her that.

Something similar for people looking for "Show Quality" Delawares. If we could gather info from people currently showing Delawares. It would help people get fair warning about how well they do at shows, and the amount of work that might be involved in getting them to do better.

I think it could be very tricky ... the plan is not to endorse any particular source of Delawares, but to have the different sources speak for themselves if they want, and also have customers share their experiences with birds from those sources.

I, personally, get a lot of questions from people looking for "good" Delawares. Then we spend some time: What do you want to do with them? Where do you live? How many do you want? Do you plan to breed them yourself? Will you be selling chicks or hatching eggs? Do you plan to buy fresh chicks every season? Yes, I'm sure I can't mail you a box of chicks. And so on ... I would love to answer with a link.

This is another one of those experiences which is teaching me how totally different people's approaches to the same "problem" can be. I don't know if other breeds have such a diversity of interest as Delawares, or such a lack of information about the current state of the breed.

It is no different in any other breed. People get caught up in an image, or an idea, and it often does not line up with reality. If there is an active group, the reputation of "strains" speak for themselves. And that is what you want. Let the owners call it what they want, and the buyer to decide that they agree or not. A simple disclaimer that your group doe not endorse any one of them. It is a buyer beware world.

Providing meat growth data, and egg numbers is a good idea. I could support that. A problem that I have had discussing these things is that no one knows how. They do not get the many variables, and end up providing numbers that is not especially helpful. We live in a my birds "lay so many a week" kind of world. What is needed before anything else is a core group of people interested in that type of selection, and actually making real progress. They are who will know their birds, and their potential. That is an entirely different line of thought. This is not creating or developing exhibition strains, and selecting accordingly. This is a different creature altogether. This is where the numbers rule, and the methods need to be scientific, and absolutely consistent. Otherwise it means absolutely nothing.

I have not seen any interest in this sort of selection. It would be nice to see in a variety of breeds.

ETA: And if this sounds like Debby Downer, I am sorry. But you asked. I shared my thoughts.

I have seen a lot of people interested in the idea of breeding productive birds. This breed is a good candidate for that. I have just not seen the interest in rolling up our sleeves and actually doing it intelligently over a period of time. If you or others could foster a sincere interest in actually breeding production birds, you have your start and your numbers.
A teenager can buy hatchery birds and track weights and eggs. It seams like a lot, but it is really very elementary. I know. I was the teenager that did it.

It would be fascinating to watch an intelligent effort to breed a productive dual purpose strain with reasonable color, and good type.