Breeding for certain muscovy traits

[Steffanyace]

No, i like to think of preservation of the what the breed is. You start messing around, and well, you could possibly ruin the breed, all one needs to do is look at purebred dogs these days.

I believe, and it is just my opinion, that breeding for show stock is what messes up a breed. Look at show bred German shepherds vs. working German stock. I think some breeders have really done their breeds wrong, but I believe getting a better show animal is the driver behind the genetic/physical issues. We can see this already in muscovies. Look at wild muscovies vs. show stock. Nature didn't select for excess caruncling. That was selective breeding for a better show animal. I don't recall seeing any wild lavender muscovies either.

Please don't take this as an argument. I'm just interested in an honest discussion on the topic.

P.s. I'm not anti-showing. I show horses and love it!

 

[Narragansett]

People need to understand that the mallard was domesticated into several breeds, hundreds or even thousands of years before the new world and it's muscovy was even discovered by those with any knowledge of selective breeding practices. Look around in about 500 years and you might see some more breeds developed from the muscovy. Since then when a new use or look was desired in a domestic duck, it was much easier to use the already high genetic diversity and combine the extant mallard derived breeds than to try to change the relatively static muscovy type.

Selective breeding for show stock does not "mess up" a breed. It may change it's original intended use, including to being "just" ornamental. There is nothing wrong with admiring a breed simply for the way it looks. The exhibition breeders in many species are often unfairly criticized for developing breeds with undesireable issues, usually by those who don't show and have no real idea what it and selective breeding is all about. In reality it is exhibition breeders who tend to have a more serious, dedicated outlook towards their animals, and who approach their care with a more intelligent view, rather than the haphazard or emotion laden misconceptions of the pet keeper or backyard breeder. It's a broad generalization, but often, "if you don't show, you don't know" about the optimal care for your animals.

 

[jdywntr]

But breeding for "how it looks" often results in problems.

English Bulldogs look very little now as they did originally because people started breeding for large heads. Now, they cannot give birth naturally but need to have c-sections due to the large head.

Show German Shepherds are bred with such a slope in their back that they cannot function well in many things like jumping, turning or even just standing.

The GSD with the extreme slope are found in the US and would be unacceptable, even in the show arena, in other countries as they cannot function as well. But at least they look pretty when they run around the show ring. Frankly, when it comes to animal health and care, the US is a bit behind many other countries. Here we dock tails and crop ears "for looks". If you have ever assisted in these procedures or had to hold a puppy down and listen to it scream when the sutures are removed from it's ears, you may reconsider the benefits of doing anything "for looks".

Ornamental is one thing, continuing to breed for looks at the detriment of the animal's health and well being, is another.

Or maybe I'm just one of those uneducated people that don't understand what selective breeding is all about.

 

[Miss Lydia]

But breeding for "how it looks" often results in problems.

English Bulldogs look very little now as they did originally because people started breeding for large heads. Now, they cannot give birth naturally but need to have c-sections due to the large head.

Show German Shepherds are bred with such a slope in their back that they cannot function well in many things like jumping, turning or even just standing.

The GSD with the extreme slope are found in the US and would be unacceptable, even in the show arena, in other countries as they cannot function as well. But at least they look pretty when they run around the show ring. Frankly, when it comes to animal health and care, the US is a bit behind many other countries. Here we dock tails and crop ears "for looks". If you have ever assisted in these procedures or had to hold a puppy down and listen to it scream when the sutures are removed from it's ears, you may reconsider the benefits of doing anything "for looks".

Ornamental is one thing, continuing to breed for looks at the detriment of the animal's health and well being, is another.

Or maybe I'm just one of those uneducated people that don't understand what selective breeding is all about.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Narragansett]

Actually I have a lot of experience with puppies with cropped ears, and with Bulldogs. I like the look. My animals, my choice of what I want. There is nothing inherently wrong with needing a C-section. If there were, every ignorant owner who doesn't think that their Chihuahua needs to be spayed, yet gets an emergency C-section at a year old should be brought up on neglect charges. I agree with the state of German Shepherd dogs in the US. I don't like them, so I don't have them, but I'm not telling others that they have to think like I do. As I see it, some short term discomfort for my benefit in exchange for a lifetime of optimal care and attention to their real needs outweighs the numerous others who don't really know how or won't spend the money to provide for their animals' real physical and psychological needs, yet who profess to love their widdle babies. If we're really talking about concern for animal welfare, then we need to also decry all of these people who keep chickens and other poultry in their home, dressing them up and otherwise treating them completely against their nature.

 

[Steffanyace]

I am an animal science major with emphasis on reproduction. I also used to successfully show horses at a national level. I've shown several other animals, bred quality show horse, etc. I "get" breeding and showing.

The original muscovy will not be lost. There would just be different varieties available. I don't see how a muscovy bred to have black caruncles or a smooth face would be any more of a harmful variation than the different feather color variations. I could see them being bred for excess curling in their crest as an option too. So long as the animal being produced is healthy (genetically/physically/mentally), I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I am not surprised to the negativity toward new ideas, but I am a surprised at the idea of "preserving the breed" through show lines. I don't see how breeding them with excess caruncling or breeding them too big to fly is preserving the characteristics of the breed. With that being said, I'm not opposed to people wanting to breed for those characteristics, so along as they are healthy for the animal and maintained in a safe environment.

I would like to see a line of muscovies maintained that have natural instincts and are able to fly and don't have excess caruncling, so they have the best chances at being a good free range duck. I would also like to see that in an ornamental muscovy line as well. Again, I'm not wanting to get rid of show or production lines. Just adding to the variety.

I guarantee if a muscovy showed up with a frizzle, silke, or Sebastopol looking mutation they'd sell quick. Just sayin' . . .

 

[Steffanyace]

I guess I should rephrase the question, so we are all on the same page . . .

Is there any interest in selectively breeding for variations in muscovy ducks (suck as has been done with mallards) considering they are selectively bred with the health of the animal being of number one importance?

 

[ChicagoDucks]

I guess I should rephrase the question . . .

Is there any interest in selectively breeding for variations in muscovy ducks (suck as has been done with mallards) considering they are selectively bred with the health of the animal being of number one importance?

If you do it, would you please breed a line muscovies that can lay 200+ eggs per year and doesn't get broody? That would make a great city duck.

 

[Tivona]

I guess I should rephrase the question, so we are all on the same page . . .

Is there any interest in selectively breeding for variations in muscovy ducks (suck as has been done with mallards) considering they are selectively bred with the health of the animal being of number one importance?

I have only had one Muscovy and never bred her so here is my *disclaimer*. I freely admit I know little about Muscovies or showing or standards and only have my opinion. And on to my observations/questions.

Muscovy is technically a species, Cairina moschata as I understand the use of the name/term "Muscovy". And they while they come in different colors they are only considered one breed as I understand. One set of standards for the whole species. How do they judge Muscovies in shows when considering different colors, just have black ones go against other black Muscovies, or Pied go against Pied then consider what is the "best" of the various best of colors?

The "regular" domestic duck that is not a Muscovy is technically a "Mallard type", Anas platyrhynchos. We have tons of different breeds of the Mallard type such as the Runners, Swedish, Caygua, and many others all of which are distinct in looks, temperament, stance, egg laying and other traits from others of the same species. As I understand it there is not such a breed distinction in the Muscovies even though they come in many colors and perhaps other differences. It seems like perhaps some could be distinct enough to consider them a separate breed and not just a color variation of the same breed while they are the same species. Are you thinking of a new breed with more differences then the standard or just a new color type? i.e. white with black caruncles but little difference or white with the black caruncles and a longer neck or something. So are you looking at more differences that might push it farther from the standard Muscovy look or their standards or the same duck with a new color pattern? What sort of traits other then color are you thinking of if you are?

When showing Muscovies do they have different categories other then perhaps color types? I see no problem taking a line and breeding it to appear differently from other Muscovy lines personally as long as the birds are stable, healthy, and otherwise right as a stable type. One thing is showing it might be difficult to get approved'allowed as you intend the line if it is too different. Having a white Muscovy with black caruncles should not ruin the species only make a new color line. And perhaps if it is different enough then perhaps its time for actual "breeds". I understand some not liking something new show up in the Muscovy line when its not segmented into breeds when they want to preserve what they see as perfect now. That however should be their responsiblity as it is with others and dog breeds, horse breeds, etc. Other then having some not like the particular look or getting it accepted in shows if that is a problem I don't see the issue as long as its up front about what you are trying to produce. Please do be careful if trying to breed more differences then just the color. Things like a longer neck could cause health concerns and the health and happiness of the birds should be foremost. Breeding differences is fine as long as the birds are not the ones paying for genetic problems.

I did look up a little on the SOP of Muscovy and one thing I did see is this, Muscovy Standards. On the page it mentions Black in the bean of White drakes as a fault. This could be a problem under the standard if you are planning a white Muscovy with the black caruncles. My guess is that the black caruncles could be a genetic issue with an all white bean. This could be why you haven't seen the sort of Muscovy your looking for if its only a color thing your talking about. People who show are not going to want to be breeding a bird who is going to be penalized or even disqualified right from the start.

The last question I have is what exactly are you looking for with this thread? Tips? Tricks/advice on breeding a type? I saw you mentioned others interest in this breeding. Are you looking for others to join you in trying to breed a white Muscovy with the black caruncles? Or are you looking for people who have Muscovies that might have the sort of traits your looking for to send you eggs? Etc.

 

[Captain Cluck]

My question for Wynter is, aren't muscovy/pekin crosses sterile? I know the mule are (males). Do the hinnies (females) even lay eggs?




Edited to say: Never mind. (smacks self in head) I looked in the forums and found out that Hinnies do indeed lay eggs. They just won't ever hatch.

So my next question is, do hinnies lay more, the same or fewer eggs than pure muscovies? I haven't found that info yet.