Breeding for PERSONALITY. AKA Hello SWEET ROO!

[centrarchid]

One thing to consider Enola -- George has gamecocks as his avatar.  Their behavior is quite different than most dual purpose breeds.  Accomplishing this project on a gamecock type bird might be near impossible, whereas it is much easier on most of the dp breeds.

Decidedly incorrect Sydney Acres. Get some gamefowl and learn about them. Work with multiple generations of birds and invest time in learning how to handle them. Same techniques can be applied to any breed with similar results, You will find their behavior is exceptionally plastic and with proper handling skills you can have males with temperaments that are as docile with respect to humans as any breed you care to compare them with. This is before you engage in the selection process which can also result in behavioral even when holding husbandry techniques constant. Enola is correct about heritability of behavior and very limited number of generations can show results. Additionally, the approach / theory of keepers of gamefowl differs markedly just as is does with keepers of other forms of poultry.

George, I could take any pair of your birds and produce chicks, rear them to adulthood and have tame birds like I use for teaching. No genetic changes required. Those birds would be as sweet as anything anyone could compare to them.

 

[howfunkyisurchicken]

I breed Silkies, known for their small stature and docile temperament, so take what I say with a grain of salt. They're my breed of choice, and I've been breeding them for quite some time. A docile personality is definitely something I select for here (and not just with my Silkies, but all of my birds). I have two fairly small children who help with chicken chores, an aggressive rooster is unacceptable given those circumstances. Also, most of the people who buy from me, especially my Silkies, are getting them for their children/grandchildren. With that in mind, I just wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew I were breeding aggressive birds. Any chickens that show aggressive tendencies, be they hens or roosters, are culled to the freezer. They aren't ever re-homed or penned elsewhere to have a chance to pass those undesirable traits on to a second generation.
I've been selecting for easy going temperaments since we got our very first flock, since we already had children to think of, and I haven't had many mean birds since our initial start. I haven't had a meanie in so long, I actually can't remember which breed my last aggressive rooster or hen was.
My current roos (there are 3) are super child friendly, mostly thanks to my 8 year old daughter. She loves the chickens. She likes to handle them, give them treats and hang out in their pens to just watch them. Its very common to see her toting one of our roosters around, mostly because they're the easiest to catch. The boys are always the first ones waiting at the gate when they see us coming. I even caught my daughter with a rooster in her bedroom once, they were "having tea". And, those boys aren't sissys either. They take care of their ladies. A few weeks back I had to run out to the run in my sock feet when a hawk decided to make its way into their pen. All of the roosters attacked that hawk. They all lost a few feathers, but everyone lived, so that's a win in my eyes.
Anyway, the whole point of this long post was mostly to give a little encouragement. Your goal is completely practical, in my opinion. And, it CAN be done. Lots of BYC members are very selective when it comes to personality.

Best of luck to you

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote: I was quite rushed at my last post and didn't have time for fully explain my point. While it is true that many game fowl are wonderful birds, and the hens are fabulous broodies, it is also true that this type of bird does have a history of being bred for aggression. Certainly not all games are aggressive, but cockfighting has been their historical purpose. And many people, definitely not all but many, who breed this type of bird do select for aggressive traits and fighting agility. So IF George is one of those breeders that works only with aggressive fighting birds, that would somewhat explain his statements that breeding the meanness out of a rooster would take more than one person's lifetime, and the bird would revert back to its unpleasant nature in almost no time. I was not trying to disparage any of these wonderful and noble breeds or insult anyone's individual birds -- just trying to make sense out of statements that seem illogical to many of us who really believe in this effort.

I do strongly disagree, however, that you can take ANY bird, raise it properly, and end up with 100% guarantee that it will be "as sweet as anything anyone could compare to them." That would be saying that all behavioral traits are the result of nurture and none from nature, which you yourself have stated is not true. It is important to realize that there are some birds that are so far on the aggressive end of the spectrum that they are not "exceptionally plastic" and do not respond to "proper handling skills." Not every bird can be raised to be safe around children or inexperienced adults. If that were true then there would be no need for genetic selection of behavior. I do strongly believe, however, that MANY animals of all species would stop being aggressive if they were in the right environment, interacting with people who understood their nature, had the proper handling skills, and were willing to meet their social needs properly.

 

[enola]

We as a group are trying to breed away from HUMAN aggression. We do not intend to breed out all rooster instincts. I have seen my Araucana rooster try to flog a strange dog through a fence. I have also seen him run a squirrel out of the hen's feeders. His son defended a flock of hens from a hawk that actually chased the hens into the coop. He removed a huge chunk of feathers from the hawk's neck while he was busy breaking the hawk's wing. We turned the hawk over to DNR. They called me to let me know the rooster also managed to ram a spur into the hawk's breast. This rooster belongs to a family with 4 children aged 3 - 11. He has never attacked anyone either. My rooster makes sure the hens get their share of treats. He does not allow any bullying between the hens. He parents young chicks and is fine with young cockerels right up until they start trying to breed the hens. He will not tolerate a mature rooster even looking at his hens in the wrong way. But, at the end of hatching season he goes into the bachelor pen with very little animosity to the younger roosters. He is not in any way a sissy! He is just not human aggressive.

 

[centrarchid]

I was quite rushed at my last post and didn't have time for fully explain my point.  While it is true that many game fowl are wonderful birds, and the hens are fabulous broodies, it is also true that this type of bird does have a history of being bred for aggression.  Certainly not all games are aggressive, but cockfighting has been their historical purpose.  And many people, definitely not all but many, who breed this type of bird do select for aggressive traits and fighting agility.   So IF George is one of those breeders that works only with aggressive fighting birds, that would somewhat explain his statements that breeding the meanness out of a rooster would take more than one person's lifetime, and the bird would revert back to its unpleasant nature in almost no time.  I was not trying to disparage any of these wonderful and noble breeds or insult anyone's individual birds -- just trying to make sense out of statements that seem illogical to many of us who really believe in this effort.

I do strongly disagree, however, that you can take ANY bird, raise it properly, and end up with 100% guarantee that it will be "as sweet as anything anyone could compare to them."  That would be saying that all behavioral traits are the result of nurture and none from nature, which you yourself have stated is not true.  It is important to realize that there are some birds that are so far on the aggressive end of the spectrum that they are not "exceptionally plastic" and do not respond to "proper handling skills."   Not every bird can be raised to be safe around children or inexperienced adults.  If that were true then there would be no need for genetic selection of behavior.  I do strongly believe, however, that MANY animals of all species would stop being aggressive if they were in the right environment, interacting with people who understood their nature, had the proper handling skills, and were willing to meet their social needs properly.

This is where ignorance is made apparent.

The fighting qualities of gamefowl have little or nothing to do with what is referred to as aggression. Aggression means simply he willingness to engage in a fight, especially before it has actually started. Games are not particularly noteworthy on that measure. In my experience California Grays and Easter Eggers can more than give games a run on their money on that measure.

Where selection of gamefowl has made changes are with respect to gameness and ability to do harm.
Gameness is simply the measure of not conceding a fight even when loosing. Calfornia Grays and Easter Eggers score poorly on that measure as they on average quickly back down. With respect to measure of ability to do harm gamefowl score very high owing speed, strength, endurance and technique.

When is comes to statements about gamefowl, it is best that those properly versed in them and nongames alke be consulted, not someone that has simply read about them or kept only token numbers of individuals,


The use of 100%. I will place no guarantees on behavior as impacted by training or the very limited amount of selection as imposed done so far by backyard breeders. With my birds doing so is not a problem because I have a good handle on proper husbandry technique and their range of variability since I grew up with this strain. My livelihood very much involves selective breeding. It works but takes a lot of time / generations and consistent selection to give the desired changes. Part of the selection results in a reduction in variability making the 100% more likely.

In the end you got your last sentence very much on the money.

To Enola,

You are correct, the tendency for Human-Aggressiveness is not correlated with attributes desired in a rooster. Bird I have that provide excellent "rooster services" are not human aggressive while the human aggressive birds if reared under similar conditions would be less capable. That is another area people need to be educated about. Roosters are not just about aggression and many of the attributes can be selected independently.

 

[TaraBellaBirds]

Quick question....the rooster I just wrote about also still has his spurs, they are still growing in to be exact. Do I need to remove them or trim them? He's not aggressive and I would rather avoid unnecessary body part removal, but if it's an "injury waiting to happen" is that something I need to look into?

I agree with the others on this matter. With your roo you may not need to remove his spurs. I know my big guy at 10 months barely has any spurs, and with his temperment he will most likely be fine keeping them for protection. A roo with aggression issues that still has his spurs is a danger. I'm sure most of us have heard horror stories (I grew up wiht them) about mean roos leaving scars with their spurs. There are pros and cons, but if your little fellow is a backyard pet more than anything you may still wish to de-spur him. It isn't difficult at all.

Here are some good links on the matter. A lady here on BYC showed me how to use the 'hot potato method' for easy spur removal.

https://sites.google.com/a/poultrypedia.com/poultrypedia/home/rooster-spurs-trimming-and-removing

 

[sourland]

One thing to consider Enola -- George has gamecocks as his avatar. Their behavior is quite different than most dual purpose breeds. Accomplishing this project on a gamecock type bird might be near impossible, whereas it is much easier on most of the dp breeds.

Exactly the opposite is true - just think about it a bit. Gamefowl have been bred/selected for gameness and fight - what if this were to be directed towards their handlers? Think of the degree of danger. Because of this human aggression has been stringently selected AGAINST, and generally gamecocks are the least human aggressive of any birds.

 

[enola]

If we keep talking about game fowl and what they were bred for, this thread is going to get LOCKED!!

Please, folks, this thread was started to discuss breeding for PERSONALITY.

Not for everyone to argue about whether or not this is an acheivable goal.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

 

[sourland]

Enola, agreed; however, sometimes misinformation is worse than no information.

 

[enola]

Enola, agreed; however, sometimes misinformation is worse than no information. 

And I agree, misinformation is not good. But, I don't want this thread LOCKED. I just wish that the couple of people that are so sure we are wasting our time with this 'project' would direct their intrests in another direction. Maybe any more comments about game fowl could be addressed in PM's in the future???

HAPPY HOLIDAYS, sourland!