Breeding for PERSONALITY. AKA Hello SWEET ROO!

[TaraBellaBirds]

I have to agree with TarraBellaBird and disagree with Free Feather here - I see no reason to think that human aggression and hen protection are genetically linked. We have no problem breeding livestock dogs that are nasty as all heck to any sort of predator, but still extremely docile around their charges and humans.

That's the short of it.


The tough thing is that most breeders couldn't care less about this - the hatcheries are breeding for standard, and breeding for egg laying (more eggs, more chicks to sell). They don't have to live with aggressive birds.

Where are these hatcheries breeding for Standard LOL? I think they throw a few roos in with a bunch of hens and harvest the eggs, that's it. You can see where in that situation aggression would be a bred INTO them, as the most aggressive roo is the one most likely to pass on it's genes. You can see the cross breeding for egg production, but you are right, they take no real concern for the aggression of the bird. In fact to them roos are a by-product......

 

[CrazyTalk]

I meant only so far as "well, this looks good enough to sell as a [whatever]"

Some hatcheries are better than others.



I'm also not sure that a rooster's ability to move to the top of the pecking order is the same as how aggressive it is going to be with people. I think most of us have seen an alpha hen that Is ruthless with her sisters, but is a snuggle bunny.

 

[Free Feather]

I meant that most roosters who attack people do it because they see us as a threat, or competition, regardless of how much bigger we are. I have to admire that kind of courage. I would never give away a mean rooster because not many others want to deal with them, and I would not want to make it a surprise. Not good for the person or the bird.

 

[TaraBellaBirds]

@CrazyTalk, Yes there are a few good hatcheries out there! And I would sugest a hatchery to a new owner who didn't know what they wanted and didn't want to spend a lot!

@Free Feather I know what you mean about courage, I have seen a roo continue to spur while being repetedly kicked and hit at. Many won't back down until they are dead. That is a problem for most backyard owners.

Personality has to be a top priority for me with small children.
I am breeding now, and with the present boom in backyard chickens, many owners are ill prepared for what those cute little balls of fluff from the hatchery may turn into.

So many people think that because they order pullets they won't get a roo!

I will only be selling straight-run day olds, or 6-8 weeks sexed chicks if they can only have hens. For my peace of mind I have to be certain that those customers that opt for straight-run aren't going to end up with a psycho roo that they aren't prepared for!

All of the breeds I have chosen to work with are docile by nature, and my stock has to come from docile parents.

I do still have some hatchery stock hens (sometimes they just grow on you) and I have to watch my mix-breed chicks, because I don't know the aggression that could come from the hens' side.

 

[Canadianislupus]

This is exactly what I intend to do with my future breeding plans. Personality is very important to me . My hatchery stock 7.5 mo RIR cockerel Chester is the sweetest gentlest guy. He protects his ladies and knows how to treat them right! He has never shown any sign of aggression towards me or any other person, even if his ladies scream when I pick them up. I realize he is still young and that might change but so far he is perfect,

 

[TaraBellaBirds]

This is exactly what I intend to do with my future breeding plans. Personality is very important to me . My hatchery stock 7.5 mo RIR cockerel Chester is the sweetest gentlest guy. He protects his ladies and knows how to treat them right! He has never shown any sign of aggression towards me or any other person, even if his ladies scream when I pick them up. I realize he is still young and that might change but so far he is perfect,

Wow you hit the jackpot! Almost everyone I've ever talked to that has had hatchery RIR's has the same story of vicious monster birds. I'm not even kidding, they were evil!

 

[Sen]

I usually just lurk here, but I have to admit, thoughtful, purposeful selective breeding is highly relevant to my interests, so I had to butt in here. I'll preface all this by saying I'm no experienced breeder (I own 4 hens and have only had them a few months!!) nor am I exceptionally experienced with chickens in specific, but selective breeding has been an interest of mine for years and I've spent considerable time researching it.

I noticed that TaraBellaBirds said
Quote:
Again, I'm not an expert here, but I've experienced a similar problem dealing with rats (I used to breed them as pets and feeders for my pet snakes). I selected my rats primarily for personality--they're nowhere near as big as a roo, but a vicious rat can make you need some stitches. Personal experience here--so any rat which displayed bad personality traits was, shall we say, disposed of. I didn't want them breeding and passing along any aggressive traits they had, and couldn't risk unwanted babies, and so had a series of 'grow-out pens'. Now, this probably would have to be modified for chickens due to the fact that you can have a bachelor 'pad' of rats--but definitely not of roosters...but the principle remains.

For simplicity's sake, I'm going to define a few terms for my use so there's no confusion.
Grow-outs will be chicks or young adults which have not yet proven whether or not they are worth keeping as breeding animals--whatever you are breeding for.
Breeders are adult animals that clearly have a place within your breeding program, and whose genetics you want to see in future offspring.

This would require a few pens--which may be a huge pain, but would allow you to track your genetics much, much more closely than a single pen. Might not work to everyone due to expense and space, but I think it's the optimal setup for this sort of thing.

You'd have one or two Breeder pens, and no young animals would ever be introduced to these pens unless you are absolutely certain that you want those genetics in the long-run.

You'd have a few Grow-out pens where you'd keep each generation of chicks, and you could observe them until you have identified those birds you want to keep and put in your Breeder pen(s) versus those who get sent to freezer-camp or sold on as pet-quality birds, or whatever you do with your extras. These pens may even contain birds old enough to be producing fertile eggs--which would not ever be hatched. These eggs would be delicious omelettes or devilled eggs or bread or cookies or something equally lovely. The roos who'd end up in freezer camp could have all the time they'd need to grow big and their faulty genetics would never be allowed into your breeding stock--simply quarantine your keeper hens for a few weeks until any sperm they may be retaining can work its way out of their systems.


Is that in any way feasible? I think it'd take a little while longer than just tossing together a roo and a hen and hoping for the best, but I don't think that's what you're going for here.


Has anybody put thought into selecting for hens whose temperament is desirable as well? I only have 4 birds, but I think of the group only one or two would be animals I'd want to use in a selective breeding program, despite how simply gorgeous they are, for reasons of skittishness. I know generally speaking the rule among chickens (actually, among almost all animals being bred) seems to be 'the more hens the better' with little regard to female quality, whereas male quality is highly focused upon, but to me to have a good baby, both parents need to be equally scrutinized for quality.


Annnnd this is a novel...sorry everyone!

 

[Canadianislupus]

I usually just lurk here, but I have to admit, thoughtful, purposeful selective breeding is highly relevant to my interests, so I had to butt in here. I'll preface all this by saying I'm no experienced breeder (I own 4 hens and have only had them a few months!!) nor am I exceptionally experienced with chickens in specific, but selective breeding has been an interest of mine for years and I've spent considerable time researching it.

I noticed that TaraBellaBirds said

Again, I'm not an expert here, but I've experienced a similar problem dealing with rats (I used to breed them as pets and feeders for my pet snakes). I selected my rats primarily for personality--they're nowhere near as big as a roo, but a vicious rat can make you need some stitches. Personal experience here--so any rat which displayed bad personality traits was, shall we say, disposed of. I didn't want them breeding and passing along any aggressive traits they had, and couldn't risk unwanted babies, and so had a series of 'grow-out pens'. Now, this probably would have to be modified for chickens due to the fact that you can have a bachelor 'pad' of rats--but definitely not of roosters...but the principle remains.

For simplicity's sake, I'm going to define a few terms for my use so there's no confusion.
Grow-outs will be chicks or young adults which have not yet proven whether or not they are worth keeping as breeding animals--whatever you are breeding for.
Breeders are adult animals that clearly have a place within your breeding program, and whose genetics you want to see in future offspring.

This would require a few pens--which may be a huge pain, but would allow you to track your genetics much, much more closely than a single pen. Might not work to everyone due to expense and space, but I think it's the optimal setup for this sort of thing.

You'd have one or two Breeder pens, and no young animals would ever be introduced to these pens unless you are absolutely certain that you want those genetics in the long-run.

You'd have a few Grow-out pens where you'd keep each generation of chicks, and you could observe them until you have identified those birds you want to keep and put in your Breeder pen(s) versus those who get sent to freezer-camp or sold on as pet-quality birds, or whatever you do with your extras. These pens may even contain birds old enough to be producing fertile eggs--which would not ever be hatched. These eggs would be delicious omelettes or devilled eggs or bread or cookies or something equally lovely. The roos who'd end up in freezer camp could have all the time they'd need to grow big and their faulty genetics would never be allowed into your breeding stock--simply quarantine your keeper hens for a few weeks until any sperm they may be retaining can work its way out of their systems.


Is that in any way feasible? I think it'd take a little while longer than just tossing together a roo and a hen and hoping for the best, but I don't think that's what you're going for here.


Has anybody put thought into selecting for hens whose temperament is desirable as well? I only have 4 birds, but I think of the group only one or two would be animals I'd want to use in a selective breeding program, despite how simply gorgeous they are, for reasons of skittishness. I know generally speaking the rule among chickens (actually, among almost all animals being bred) seems to be 'the more hens the better' with little regard to female quality, whereas male quality is highly focused upon, but to me to have a good baby, both parents need to be equally scrutinized for quality.


Annnnd this is a novel...sorry everyone!

From what I've read you actually can keep roosters in a bachelor flock and several members here on BYC do with success. I would definitely be looking for temperament with hens as well as roosters. Out of my 4 oldest pullets only one has a temperament I would consider good enough for a breeding program. Always nice to meet a fellow rat lover too!....Also don't worry about post length haha I can't help myself sometimes when it comes to talking about chickens

.

 

[TaraBellaBirds]

I usually just lurk here, but I have to admit, thoughtful, purposeful selective breeding is highly relevant to my interests, so I had to butt in here. I'll preface all this by saying I'm no experienced breeder (I own 4 hens and have only had them a few months!!) nor am I exceptionally experienced with chickens in specific, but selective breeding has been an interest of mine for years and I've spent considerable time researching it.

I noticed that TaraBellaBirds said

Again, I'm not an expert here, but I've experienced a similar problem dealing with rats (I used to breed them as pets and feeders for my pet snakes). I selected my rats primarily for personality--they're nowhere near as big as a roo, but a vicious rat can make you need some stitches. Personal experience here--so any rat which displayed bad personality traits was, shall we say, disposed of. I didn't want them breeding and passing along any aggressive traits they had, and couldn't risk unwanted babies, and so had a series of 'grow-out pens'. Now, this probably would have to be modified for chickens due to the fact that you can have a bachelor 'pad' of rats--but definitely not of roosters...but the principle remains.

For simplicity's sake, I'm going to define a few terms for my use so there's no confusion.
Grow-outs will be chicks or young adults which have not yet proven whether or not they are worth keeping as breeding animals--whatever you are breeding for.
Breeders are adult animals that clearly have a place within your breeding program, and whose genetics you want to see in future offspring.

This would require a few pens--which may be a huge pain, but would allow you to track your genetics much, much more closely than a single pen. Might not work to everyone due to expense and space, but I think it's the optimal setup for this sort of thing.

You'd have one or two Breeder pens, and no young animals would ever be introduced to these pens unless you are absolutely certain that you want those genetics in the long-run.

You'd have a few Grow-out pens where you'd keep each generation of chicks, and you could observe them until you have identified those birds you want to keep and put in your Breeder pen(s) versus those who get sent to freezer-camp or sold on as pet-quality birds, or whatever you do with your extras. These pens may even contain birds old enough to be producing fertile eggs--which would not ever be hatched. These eggs would be delicious omelettes or devilled eggs or bread or cookies or something equally lovely. The roos who'd end up in freezer camp could have all the time they'd need to grow big and their faulty genetics would never be allowed into your breeding stock--simply quarantine your keeper hens for a few weeks until any sperm they may be retaining can work its way out of their systems.


Is that in any way feasible? I think it'd take a little while longer than just tossing together a roo and a hen and hoping for the best, but I don't think that's what you're going for here.


Has anybody put thought into selecting for hens whose temperament is desirable as well? I only have 4 birds, but I think of the group only one or two would be animals I'd want to use in a selective breeding program, despite how simply gorgeous they are, for reasons of skittishness. I know generally speaking the rule among chickens (actually, among almost all animals being bred) seems to be 'the more hens the better' with little regard to female quality, whereas male quality is highly focused upon, but to me to have a good baby, both parents need to be equally scrutinized for quality.


Annnnd this is a novel...sorry everyone!

First of all, Hi from a fellow rat-lover!
Second, yes your plan is feasible. Many chicken owners, including myself have 'bacholer pens' for boys preparing for butcher. There is normally very little aggresion as long as females are elsewhere.
As you stated this can be costly (for pen materials) time consuming, and takes a lot of space.
There are other ways to deal with excess/aggressive roos and to fatten them quickly, but not everyone has the tools to make the other options feasible.
Bachelor pens are one of the most common and probably easiest way to deal with roosters.

 

[enola]

I meant that most roosters who attack people do it because they see us as a threat, or competition, regardless of how much bigger we are. I have to admire that kind of courage. I would never give away a mean rooster because not many others want to deal with them, and I would not want to make it a surprise. Not good for the person or the bird.

Maybe you want to pm all of us your address so we can send you of all of our nasty roosters......... . Because a nasty rooster is certainly not going to stay here long enough to be part of the gene pool.