BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Beekissed]

I work my birds alone too, so I know how difficult it can be to work on things alone...especially big roosters. I've figured out I can take a nice old towel, lay the bird on his back on that towel and wrap him up like a taco. This will help you control him better while you work on those feet. It also gives you a great place to wipe that goopy CO off your hands.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote: Thanks!!! I have castor oil, will use that (used some tonight, but basically had to make do with what I could get into the little cap - will have in an easier to manage container next time). Do you dip or rub? (I'm figuring rub...) One of his scales has a lot of black stuff under it, I think he's going to need more soap and soaking to remove junk, as well.

I work my birds alone too, so I know how difficult it can be to work on things alone...especially big roosters. I've figured out I can take a nice old towel, lay the bird on his back on that towel and wrap him up like a taco. This will help you control him better while you work on those feet. It also gives you a great place to wipe that goopy CO off your hands.

Fortunately most of my boys are easily handled, but I try to think ahead and have everything at arms length in the bathroom when I'm bringing one in.

He's a good tempered boy - feeling very bad about missing this and thankful that I noticed his limp today - hopeful for a quick resolution )or at least quick improvement). His comb is also weird looking, I put castor oil on that while we were soaking, too...



I have three marans girls and one OE with feathered legs of various degrees, they'll get checked and treated first.

Thanks again - as always, you have such helpful info!!!

(I do have my weights and photos from my NN x GNH cross, but got sidetracked by this, so I'll need to post that later.)

- Ant Farm

 

[Beekissed]

YW! I think your right about his comb...good idea to put some there, just for kicks and giggles. Whenever I'm putting on my winter CO application, I always put a dab on every bird's comb and wattles, but particularly a good layer on the rooster....his comb is so very big and fleshy.

 

[DesertChic]

I also know a few people who swear by plain old fashioned petroleum jelly for mites and beginning bumble foot...though in my experience it's not always the start of bumble foot, but a kind of callous that forms in chickens with plumper than usual cushions on the bottoms of their feet. I butchered a rooster that had a large spot like the one in your photo and it really was nothing more than a large callous. There was no core beneath the callous and it never seemed to impede his activity in any way while he was alive.

Or...maybe in my inexperience that's just what it looks like to my untrained eye.

In regards to your scaly, feather-footed boy....I've noticed that my lone feather-footed NN has larger than normal and slightly raised scales around the areas where the feathers grow, though not as bad as what appears in your photo. I've also noticed that ALL of my Bielefelder boys have unusually scaly feet. I've checked them for mites and over and over again and have never seen a single one, but treat with castor oil and/or petroleum jelly on a regular basis...just in case. None of my other birds display this scaliness, so I have to wonder if some birds are simply genetically predisposed to the condition.

All of that said, I've been reading diligently and learning as much as possible since my assumptions about what I see can most definitely be wrong.

 

[Our Roost]

Scaly shanks and feet that look like a prehistoric giant lizard can differ in appearance as to the breed of bird. I guess what I am saying is "that" appearance may not be not abnormal. Scales as you call them are less noticeable on a skinny legged chicken that the rooster of that same breed. Thick shanked breeds can have or will have a more scaly look. I look for the more important aspect on the actual touchy, feely condition of their legs and the condition of them. If they are dried up, or have crooked toes, and how the bird carries itself when walking. I actually changed my roosting polls to flat boards with carpet to keep the posture of their feet more stable at night. I have to ask if there is a moisturizer for dry and scaly skin? Petroleum jelly may work but there might be something more suitable for the symptom?

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Apologies in advance if this is a bit of a talent form the "Breeding for Production" topic, but since I had posted earlier on this:

So, day before yesterday, Monkey had no noticeable limp (I didn't spend tons of time watching him, but I think I would have noticed it). Yesterday, noticeable mild limp. This morning, really pretty bad limp and laying down in the grass/dirt. Obviously favoring/protecting the foot where the possible bumble foot on the bottom is (and not the worst of the scaly legs). Although I felt like I had a good handle on things, I was worried at the quick progression in symptoms, and was already home from work today for other reasons (raccoons are pulling up panels of my metal roof to crawl into my attic - fun!). And I have a chicken vet I trust. They had an opening, so off I went.

Nothing earth-shattering, but confirmation of my concerns - he was sort of like, yeah, there might be some scaly leg mite, but the bumble foot is what is causing his acute problem needs to be addressed right away before it gets worse. (He did commend me for catching it early, and for being so knowledgable about taking care of them. He had horror stories about people who get cute chicks from tractor supply and 6 months later, after not really looking after them they way they should, they'd come in when "there's hardly any chicken left to treat".) I was impressed by his approach and communication - they are the only vet who really sees chickens in the city (so they get all there referrals). He discussed and disclosed that as a knowledgable chicken owner I actually had more options available to me (to treat on my own) than he had to prescribe/dispense to me because of the FDA rules and the fact that chickens are "food animals". (He said not to even get him started on trying to find options to treat a pet pot-bellied pig.) I was also impressed that at the beginning he asked me what Monkey's origin was (he came from a good breeder that breeds for health and longevity), because some birds (incl. hatchery) are bred for quick growth and size at the expense of having appropriate good feet. He also had a standard "patient education" part of the visit where he reminded me that all chickens could have salmonella and to wash my hands, and that with the concerns about avian influenza, if I have any unexplained deaths, I should get a necropsy (I told him I already had had one at our state poultry vet for an ALV-related loss of a hen and that I knew the poultry pathologist). I think this is his standard thing he covers with all chicken owners, just in case. He had this really neat metal thing that he used to help get his mouth open and hold it open for the exam - I've GOT to get one of those things. It has "steps" on it so you can do it with beaks of different sizes. (As you can imagine, this guy sees a lot of parrots, etc.)

No surgery, no meds - the plan is wound care and keeping him inside on soft surface until healing - I'm glad the "hospital pen" was all clean and ready (best thing I ever did was to have that always clean and ready- you never know when you need to isolate or treat and injured bird). More specifically, daily soak in a medicated bath (chlorhexidine), followed by application all over the foot (top, bottom, sides, "anywhere that doesn't look like a perfect chicken foot" of SolvaKer, an ointment containing 6.6% salicylic acid, to help penetrate and slough old dead scales and let the medicated bath penetrate. This will address the bumble foot as well as the leg mites. (He offered an x-ray to check for bone involvement, but was not surprised when I declined it, and said he needed to make sure I knew options.)

He was VERY well behaved, very sweet, super super mellow guy. Everyone at the vet adored him - they love chickens. He crowed for them a few times when he got bored waiting.



He's chilling in his hospital wing at the moment - I'm going to soak his foot once I get some stuff sorted out.



Oh, and he is a fan of self-education of owners. One of the resources he listed for me to go to for more information was.... backyardchickens.com.

Thanks again for the input and help on everything folks!!!

- Ant Farm

 

[DesertChic]

A while back I think someone posted here some images of an off-color liver from a chicken they'd processed and it started a discussion about fatty liver, over-feeding, etc. Well, today I processed one of my extra roosters and found the same thing. Not only was the liver tinted yellow from being so fatty, but all of the organs were encased in fat and I cut out two huge patches of fat just so I could fit my hand inside the carcass to remove the organs.

I also can't recall who it was who suggested I was over-feeding the chickens??? Well, I stand by my response that it's very hard for the chickens to free-range here when so little edible vegetation grows in the desert, but I'm also reconsidering your suggestion. This particular bird was caged in an 8' x 10' x 6' pen with a roost and didn't get much exercise, which I'm sure contributed to his gains in fat, but I'm going to be much more attentive to the amount of feed I'm giving all of my birds and will be carefully monitoring how much fat I find on my birds from here on out. If even my more active birds show excessive fattiness then it'll be obvious that I'm doing something very wrong. Thank you for being forthright in your opinion. I'm still learning!


Here's some images of this processing experience:


You can see the yellowish-brown tint in the pieces of liver on the right, and just how much fat I removed before I could finally fit my hand inside the bird, as well as the fat that remained on the heart.

But....he processed out to be a nice 5.2 lbs AFTER removing all that fat, so I think we'll be eating well this meal. And I'll finally get to make Schmaltz!

 

[Beekissed]

That's one FAT rooster! But then, you are breeding for a meaty carcass and great weight gains, so you've succeeded! That carcass looks almost like a CX bird. I've never seen that much fat in the omentum of a rooster but that's pretty common in an older laying hen.

I've seen worse livers than that in old hens that have aged out of laying, so that one's not too bad....but I've never seen fatty liver on a rooster before, so that's a new one on me. Roosters/cockerels usually have really healthy livers...at least, all that I have butchered have...but then, my experience is always with free ranged birds instead of penned birds, so there could be the difference.

That was probably me saying you were feeding too much....that sounds like something I'm always saying.

 

[DesertChic]

That's one FAT rooster! But then, you are breeding for a meaty carcass and great weight gains, so you've succeeded! That carcass looks almost like a CX bird. I've never seen that much fat in the omentum of a rooster but that's pretty common in an older laying hen.

I've seen worse livers than that in old hens that have aged out of laying, so that one's not too bad....but I've never seen fatty liver on a rooster before, so that's a new one on me. Roosters/cockerels usually have really healthy livers...at least, all that I have butchered have...but then, my experience is always with free ranged birds instead of penned birds, so there could be the difference.

That was probably me saying you were feeding too much....that sounds like something I'm always saying.

Well, if it was you...thank you. I've actually been thinking about that comment since I read it and wondering if I need to change feeding habits. My husband and I were discussing it tonight over dinner (pizza, not chicken

). Was it the winter season encouraging the rooster to hoard more fat? Too much feed? Too little activity? Age? The NN + WR crossing? He was a month shy of being a year old, but I've processed year-old roosters before and never seen that much fat leaving me with more questions than answers, and a few theories to test. There's always more for me to learn.

As a side note, I also processed what was supposed to be an Austra-White cockerel but turned out to be a female of some sort of white chicken. She had very short legs, crooked toes, spurs, an unusually small head, bulging eyes, and a sickle tail...all attributes that made me think she was horribly in-bred. I held onto her for roughly a year because my son was very fond of her in spite of her flighty behavior, but she never laid a single egg that I knew of and I was growing increasingly irritated about feeding a non-producer. Well, when I processed her I could find absolutely no sign of reproductive organs of any sort. She too was fatty, but I expected that, but there were no eggs or egg follicles inside her, no testes....nothing. It was one of the strangest things I've ever seen.

 

[DesertChic]

I managed to get some semi-decent photos of Andres. I'm overdue on weighing him, but he's a big boy and, in my opinion, amazingly beautiful.