BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Highcotton]

I agree with you NYREDS.  There certainly is no reason why production and correct standard appearance can not be selected for...but I have very strong beliefs that many folks will and do breed for form over function (perhaps unintentionally) and I think you will agree with that if you will take off your dark glasses.

For any breed to be truly successful all aspects must be considered. If a breeder breeds only for conformation to physical form then the breed will begin to fail to meet production standards expected. The best production is not always realized from purebred stock but from selective crossing of different breeds.

I agree that records should be kept to insure that the best mates are selected for physical and production traits.

 

[3riverschick]

Breeding for meat production takes an artisan - One must juggle egg production and body size. They must keep records of weights and set minimum weights for birds to be at a certain age ( depending on sex).

Form fallows function in very few breeds. Well the only one that comes to the top of my head is Sussex. Look at the cattle and poultry industry if function fallows form they would not be using four way crosses....

Where?!? Where re the charts for weights and ages? I have been
trying to find them but it looks like they are some kind of secret, sigh.
Thanks,
Karen

 

[call ducks]

Quote: That's why it takes an artisan Each breed should develop at a different weight. Emily has guidelines for her light sussex and culls any that are under X weight in X amount of weeks. It takes some experimenting. If you you are breeding for production you want larger weights sooner. So in a way it's not secret but there is no set standard (IMO for a good reason). As a breeder you have to choose a weight you think would be good and at what time you think it should be there. Keep track of what birds are the fastest growers pick any exceptionally good ones out to start using and improving on your baseline.

Quote: But there are no production standards - Sure sites say the should lay XXX amount of eggs per year. But breeding for production is way harder than breeding for phenotype. You can easily judge a bird based on it's phenotype. But there it takes a good set of hands to judge for production traits. And you can have great production from pure bred stock if bred correctly. The physicality of the bird in terms of feathers has little to do with production - So I guess what I don't get is why do we judge birds on it. It makes no sense. Chickens are livestock - not dogs or cats.

There was a comparison done with dog breeds from 100 years ago and dog breeds today side by side the difference was shocking, and really makes you stop and think.... I wish I could find it now but I can't

 

[hellbender]

That's why it takes an artisan Each breed should develop at a different weight. Emily has guidelines for her light sussex and culls any that are under X weight in X amount of weeks. It takes some experimenting. If you you are breeding for production you want larger weights sooner. So in a way it's not secret but there is no set standard (IMO for a good reason). As a breeder you have to choose a weight you think would be good and at what time you think it should be there. Keep track of what birds are the fastest growers pick any exceptionally good ones out to start using and improving on your baseline.


But there are no production standards - Sure sites say the should lay XXX amount of eggs per year. But breeding for production is way harder than breeding for phenotype. You can easily judge a bird based on it's phenotype. But there it takes a good set of hands to judge for production traits. And you can have great production from pure bred stock if bred correctly. The physicality of the bird in terms of feathers has little to do with production - So I guess what I don't get is why do we judge birds on it. It makes no sense. Chickens are livestock - not dogs or cats.

There was a comparison done with dog breeds from 100 years ago and dog breeds today side by side the difference was shocking, and really makes you stop and think.... I wish I could find it now but I can't

As I previously posted, I've had considerable experience with dogs too. You don't have to go back 100 years to see the dramatic changes....a quarter of that time will give adequate reason to be shocked, even to the untrained eye.

 

[enola]

Yes, what AKC has done to Australian Shepherds in 20 years is enough to make me up-chuck.

 

[Highcotton]

That's why it takes an artisan Each breed should develop at a different weight. Emily has guidelines for her light sussex and culls any that are under X weight in X amount of weeks. It takes some experimenting.  If you you are breeding for production you want larger weights sooner. So in a way it's not secret but there is no set standard (IMO for a good reason). As a breeder you have to choose a weight you think would be good and at what time you think it should be there. Keep track of what birds are the fastest growers pick any exceptionally good ones out to start using and improving on your baseline.


But there are no production standards - Sure sites say the should lay XXX amount of eggs per  year. But breeding for production is way harder than breeding for phenotype. You can easily judge a bird based on it's phenotype. But there it takes a good set of hands to judge for production traits. And you can have great production from pure bred stock if bred correctly. The physicality of the bird in terms of feathers has little to do with production - So I guess what I don't get is why do we judge birds on it. It makes no sense. Chickens are livestock - not dogs or cats. 

There was a comparison done with dog breeds from 100 years ago and dog breeds today side by side the difference was shocking, and really makes you stop and think.... I wish I could find it now but I can't 

I agree with you. As long as we judge based on phenotype without considering performance we won't maximize performance. Even when developing crosses we still need the very best thorobreds.

 

[call ducks]

It's interesting to know how a modern hybrid is bred. I am in the process of planning two of them. One meat one eggs. Each will easily encompass 10+ breeds. While I am not at liberty to divulge to much, this is how hybrids first got their start. Now most company use cultivator stock to reduce time needed from inception to marketable (at least 10 years if you are lucky).


Glad to see there are some people that are still init for production!

 

[Freeholder]

I'll keep an eye on this thread, too. I want my birds to look nice, but they have to produce or I can't afford to keep them!

Kathleen

 

[Arielle]

Quote: That's why it takes an artisan Each breed should develop at a different weight. Emily has guidelines for her light sussex and culls any that are under X weight in X amount of weeks. It takes some experimenting. If you you are breeding for production you want larger weights sooner. So in a way it's not secret but there is no set standard (IMO for a good reason). As a breeder you have to choose a weight you think would be good and at what time you think it should be there. Keep track of what birds are the fastest growers pick any exceptionally good ones out to start using and improving on your baseline.

Quote: But there are no production standards - Sure sites say the should lay XXX amount of eggs per year. But breeding for production is way harder than breeding for phenotype. You can easily judge a bird based on it's phenotype. But there it takes a good set of hands to judge for production traits. And you can have great production from pure bred stock if bred correctly. The physicality of the bird in terms of feathers has little to do with production - So I guess what I don't get is why do we judge birds on it. It makes no sense. Chickens are livestock - not dogs or cats.

There was a comparison done with dog breeds from 100 years ago and dog breeds today side by side the difference was shocking, and really makes you stop and think.... I wish I could find it now but I can't

I'll keep an eye on this thread, too. I want my birds to look nice, but they have to produce or I can't afford to keep them!

Kathleen

I'm in !!

While I love trying to understand the SOP, I ultimately have the birds for eggs and meat. ANd all the hatchery stock has been very poor on the meat capacity, which is what I expected. Decent layers but . . . . . I'm looking for something else.

DOgs-- I saw a comparison of a breed think it was a bull dog painted about 1890-1900 and a puiture today and I almost fell off my chair. I then understood why one shep breed does NOT allow the animals to become show sheep as production is the focus. As for chickens, MR Reese has NH which are a production line for meat.

For me production of eggs needs to be year round-- we go thru withdrawls when the girls stop laying in the fall and we are reduced to buying eggs from the store. . . . they sure are not like the eggs our girls produce!!

OP thanks for starting the thread!

 

[hellbender]

" I'm in !!

While I love trying to understand the SOP, I ultimately have the birds for eggs and meat. ANd all the hatchery stock has been very poor on the meat capacity, which is what I expected. Decent layers but . . . . . I'm looking for something else.

DOgs-- I saw a comparison of a breed think it was a bull dog painted about 1890-1900 and a puiture today and I almost fell off my chair. I then understood why one shep breed does NOT allow the animals to become show sheep as production is the focus. As for chickens, MR Reese has NH which are a production line for meat.

For me production of eggs needs to be year round-- we go thru withdrawls when the girls stop laying in the fall and we are reduced to buying eggs from the store. . . . they sure are not like the eggs our girls produce!!

OP thanks for starting the thread!" Quoted Arielle'

For my part, I would do without, rather than try to choke down one of those miserable things called eggs in most markets.