BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[bnjrob]

thank you for the link, the article post was great.

As I read the post I thought about a three farm team that mentioned raising buckeyes where each farm took on one different weak point in the three flocks. I as a newbie can't comprehend culling for so many detractors, failures or weak features. I can see that my progress might proceed at a faster rate if I only raised from 2% of my hens but I might also perpetuate a very weak gene that was hidden, because of my inexperience.

You're not going to be able to see everything all at once. It almost sneaks up on you. You notice one or two things more often when you're first starting. Then as you raise more birds from hatch to maturity, you start seeing other things and you make correlations with earlier observations. And you start seeing things sooner than you did before. That's the part of getting familiar with your group of birds. It seems intimidating at first, but things start slipping into place and you have those *aha!* moments and wonder why in the world you didn't see something sooner.

I read that post about the Dels, what they did not spell out is that this was the amount of time it took to reach where they are now. It is easy to read that post talking about the different birds and how they turned out, but people don't always remember that chickens aren't ready to breed and hatch from every couple of months. It takes about a year, sometimes more, to get each group hatched and matured enough to see the results of the genetic pairings, and then be able to breed, hatch, and raise again to see further improvements or more flaws. So people shouldn't beat themselves up when they aren't getting things accomplished quickly. The postings and photos make it seem fast, but it really isn't.

And neopolitaincrazy is so right - you'll be going along fine and something will pop up out of thin air that you have not seen in your flock before. I've seen the breeder we obtained our original birds from telling people "my birds don't have the problem". Their birds may not have that problem they were talking about, but it is in the genes because the original birds we got from them have those flaws. And then the offspring from our original birds has had some flaws come up that their parents didn't have. And we only have one breed, so we know that these issues are not coming up from any crossbreeding. They are just there and when the right combo of genetic material meets, something weird shows up. But it's not the end of the world. When these things pop up. As you get acquainted with your flock, you learn which things you need to emphasize, which things you need to fix soon, and which things can sit in the corner and simmer a while before you need to take any drastic action.

 

[gjensen]

thank you for the link, the article post was great.

As I read the post I thought about a three farm team that mentioned raising buckeyes where each farm took on one different weak point in the three flocks. I as a newbie can't comprehend culling for so many detractors, failures or weak features. I can see that my progress might proceed at a faster rate if I only raised from 2% of my hens but I might also perpetuate a very weak gene that was hidden, because of my inexperience.

This is why it is best to stay away from these kinds of projects when we are starting out. The Australorps are a good breed for you to start with because the color is easy to learn, and you can focus on type.

10% is a good rule of thumb for retaining birds. I am keeping 1%-2% of my Catalanas, but they are a project. Projects of this sort tend to require hatching more and keeping less.

I started with projects, but they were a different kind of project. I was not going to feel like I failed, because they were just layers and meat birds.

 

[gjensen]

Since this a breeding for production thread, how many here are actually doing this?

Then for those that are, how do they go about doing it?

 

[neopolitancrazy]

This isn't exactly what you were asking about, but here goes. I think I need to light the pen for the new Wyandotte pullet that is in lay. I have never had to do this, the Dorkings laid well in low light conditions. Does it matter to the chickens whether I add light at the beginning or end of the day? Does the color of the light matter? Or can I do what ever is easiest on my schedule or the cheapest at the hardware store?

 

[gjensen]

This isn't exactly what you were asking about, but here goes. I think I need to light the pen for the new Wyandotte pullet that is in lay. I have never had to do this, the Dorkings laid well in low light conditions. Does it matter to the chickens whether I add light at the beginning or end of the day? Does the color of the light matter? Or can I do what ever is easiest on my schedule or the cheapest at the hardware store?

A white light is better than a red or blue bulb which has little effect, if any.

The added light is generally considered better in the morning rather than evening. The extra evening lighting is more disruptive to their roosting pattern.

When I did use lights, I had them on a timer that came on automatically in the morning. It is important that it is consistent.

 

[bnjrob]

This isn't exactly what you were asking about, but here goes. I think I need to light the pen for the new Wyandotte pullet that is in lay. I have never had to do this, the Dorkings laid well in low light conditions. Does it matter to the chickens whether I add light at the beginning or end of the day? Does the color of the light matter? Or can I do what ever is easiest on my schedule or the cheapest at the hardware store?

I've done it once and I just got a cheap droplight from the hardware section at walmart and a cheap mechanical timer, ran an extension cord out to the pasture. Had it come on in the mornings so that they weren't confused by it getting dark in the evening but then having a light on inside when they thought they were supposed to go to bed. I used a fluorescent daylight spectrum bulb, but that is what I also use in the house so I wasn't buying anything extra.

From some of the things I've read, it isn't supposed to take much light at all, some poultry experts say just a small nightlight bulb will suffice. I would think it might depend somewhat on the interior of your coop - the color of the walls and the space to be lit. A large area would need a higher wattage if it was bare wood compared to a smaller space and/or a space that was painted light color or white, so that the walls reflected the light rather than seeming to absorb it all.

 

[ocap]

I used a light for a while this winter (3:30am until 8:30am). I put the timer in a zip lock bag and sealed as much as I could to keep dust out of the mechanism.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:
Hmmmm. sometimes you give me so much to think about george that I have to go away for a while and think before responding.

I have chickens that go out to the horse stalls, and out to the pastures. ANd as they often go back repeatedly I surmise they are getting something worth going back for. One rooster hung out in the sheep pen all last summer. . .he maneuvered around the sheep feet at the feed bunk. He was low man on the totem pole so left the mainflock as soon as the coop door opened and was one of the last to enter at night.

Perhaps this could be looked at like beef. Young cattle raised on grass until finishing in feed lots on grain ie corn along with hay.Though we now know that grass fed beef is far better for us than the heavily grain fed. ANd begs the question how to get more greens into the chicken's diet. SO if the diet "should " be more green vegie material, " should we accept a lower production but get a far higher product value in that the eggs will be better in the omegas and vit A, and the meat also . I struggle with this.

Part of my struggle is that I am realizing that it is the fats that we eat that are likely to be contaminated with fatsoluable chemicals, and these accumulate in the fat. ANd it concentrates. For every pound of meat, the bird ate X pounds of grains . .. . and this bothers me. Perhaps organic grains ARE worth the extra money. I struggle with this too.

 

[ocap]

what is your primary "goal" for your flock this summer (year)?

mine will be determining "point of lay", I have no idea what that is in my flock.

 

[gjensen]

Hmmmm. sometimes you give me so much to think about george that I have to go away for a while and think before responding.

I have chickens that go out to the horse stalls, and out to the pastures. ANd as they often go back repeatedly I surmise they are getting something worth going back for. One rooster hung out in the sheep pen all last summer. . .he maneuvered around the sheep feet at the feed bunk. He was low man on the totem pole so left the mainflock as soon as the coop door opened and was one of the last to enter at night.

Perhaps this could be looked at like beef. Young cattle raised on grass until finishing in feed lots on grain ie corn along with hay.Though we now know that grass fed beef is far better for us than the heavily grain fed. ANd begs the question how to get more greens into the chicken's diet. SO if the diet "should " be more green vegie material, " should we accept a lower production but get a far higher product value in that the eggs will be better in the omegas and vit A, and the meat also . I struggle with this.

Part of my struggle is that I am realizing that it is the fats that we eat that are likely to be contaminated with fatsoluable chemicals, and these accumulate in the fat. ANd it concentrates. For every pound of meat, the bird ate X pounds of grains . .. . and this bothers me. Perhaps organic grains ARE worth the extra money. I struggle with this too.

I believe in greens as an important part of a bird's diet. Particularly fresh, young, tender greens that are alive. When my birds are in their breeding pens, they are brought some daily. My opinion is that if we do not bring the birds fresh greens that are confined, we are not doing as we should. Historically, poultry breeders felt the same. BUT, they did not have the complete rations that we do today. That was their vitamin, mineral supplement. So my position is an opinion, not a fact. It would not be true to say that someone was neglecting their birds because they did not. My opinion is in part based on the greens being alive. Their is a lot to be said for food that is alive.

I am a strong supporter of birds on range, in particular growing birds. I do not believe their can be a better substitute. I attribute this more than anything to access to a variety of herbs, grasses, and greens. I want them to have all three though I understand that coarse mature grasses should not be a large part of a bird's diet.

I say the above because it is impossible to overstate the importance of fresh air, sunshine, and tender greens.

On the other hand, our birds are not cows, sheep, rabbits, or horses. They are not high fiber animals. They are not ruminants. They are seed eaters. Sheep or cows do not require the amount of energy that our birds do. Our bird's heart rates are in excess of 250 beats per minute. They have very high respiration rates. They require a lot of energy to maintain this super high metabolism. They are more than anything, seed eaters. They need more energy (seeds) than any other thing.

Cows are not big seed eaters. They are great converters of high fiber, low protein grass into flesh. They have comparatively low metabolisms and are equipped to get the most out of little. They are not made to process high energy feeds (corn), like a chicken is. It used to put on fat, because people like marbled beef. Not because it is best for the cows.

Your poultry meat will be more nutritionally dense, because of the added time required to develop that flesh. Also that the birds get more exercise. The flesh will more developed. Any improvement in the eggs would be from the variety of feed stuffs that they have access to.

So I believe and emphasize the access to greens for our birds, but will hold to that grains and legumes should be the majority of their diet. They need more than anything (in qty) energy.

Ducks, and especially geese, are better converters of green forage.