BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[neopolitancrazy]

...my impression is that I should push the cockerels in particular, feeding them like I do Cornish-Rocks...

I can email her asking for more clarification if you like.

I would appreciate clarification, thank you. My understanding is that CornishXrocks are not pushed, but are limit-fed, reducing both the volume of feed offered and the protein available to slow their growth. (Otherwise they outgrow their skeletons and internal organs.) I am trying to accomplish the opposite, increase early growth in a strain that doesn't flesh out for months, so feeding them like cornishxrocks seems counterintuitive.
Best wishes,
Angela

 

[gjensen]

You mentioned your mentor told you to push your birds for early meat production, any specifics that you would care to pass along?
I am trying to improve meat production in my strain, am planning to feed 30% game chick starter for the first 4 weeks, and am ambivalent about leaving them on that (they aren't CornishXs, should not have problems outgrowing their bones, right?) or switching to 20% FlockRaiser during some part of their youth. Other than selecting against the scrawny birds, I can't think of anything else, can you?
Best wishes,
Angela

Angela, you can feed them higher protein feed, and up to the upper limits when they are on grass. Confined, there is a point where you waste money, and do more harm than good. When 20% of their ration is 14% protein grass and half of it's weight is water . . . you get the point. You have to decide where that is with your own birds. The highest protein feeds has no effect on final size.

You will get to know them, and what you like for them. I feed my Catalanas differently than I do my NHs. I would start with the 24%, and go from there. That works best for my NHs up to about 8wks where the difference starts getting smaller. It is a waste for my Catalanas, and bad for the Catalana pullets.

Getting the best numbers is management. Some different things help.

One starts in the brooder box. I try to get them off of heat early, but this does not help to get an early carcass. They will grow faster if they have access to heat longer. They utilize a lot of energy to stay warm. Earlier cooler temps does not stunt their final size, but it does have an affect on early rate of growth. Raise two boxes differently and you will see what I mean.
The above illustrates environment. You want to avoid extremes either way early in their development, if you are looking at the numbers. You want to avoid checks in the rate of growth. You want to beat the heat to. When you hatch means a lot. Ideally they will be coming off of heat once the nights stop dropping too low.

Cockerels running around the pasture will not fill out as fast. Some of it is the feed consumed. They will fill out earlier if they are confined to house and run. I let my cockerels run, but meat is not my priority. I select them accordingly, of course.
When I have, and when I do again, raise a batch for the sole purpose of flesh . . . I am not letting them run all over the place.

Get them away from pullets as soon as you can tell the difference.

Each of the above will not make a big difference. It is a series of small victories. You have to balance your priorities. Think management. Environment, feed, etc. Everything matters. What matters most is genetics and selection. You want them to reach their potential, and within the limits of their potential.

You do not want to push your pullets. If you feed a high protein feed, drop the levels once you can separate them. There is no advantage to pushing pullets. Only disadvantages. Let the genetics do the talking with the pullets, and depend on selection.

Concerning selection, improvements are had in increments. You have to hatch and raise enough to select. Especially when you are concerned with production. There has to be enough grown all of the way out to make final choices. You also have to feel the birds. Who has good fleshing at what age. It is not just who is biggest. Feel the thighs, breast etc. Go through the pullets the same way, because they are the other half of the mating.
You have to decide at what age is appropriate for your birds. You want it consistent from year to year, but gradually raising the bar. I want them as close to the peak of the growth curve as I can get them, and as close to them molting into their adult feathers as I can. They only get tougher and more expensive from that point on. Productive is efficient. If they are not efficient (comparatively speaking), they are not productive.

To select them for a purpose, the purpose has to matter. It has to be done consistently from year to year. It has to be intentional, and intelligent. There has to be a system. It is not complicated. It is only a rhythm as we go through the seasons.

The rate of improvement depends on the variability within the flock we are selecting from. Often the initial progress is faster than the later progress. At a point, progress is slow unless we can hatch thousands. 100 chicks a year is only going to get us so far, so fast, once we get to a point.
There is a link between how many hens we breed, and how many eggs we hatch.

Keeping the flock vigorous is important. Rate of growth, maturity, point of lay, etc. all is affected by vigor. You want to select from the most vigorous cocks and hens, all of the time. Health and vigor is always priority number one. Less vigorous birds, have less than vigorous offspring. Less than vigorous offspring are less productive.
Plan on bringing a new bird every so often. Going too far hurts vigor, and therefore production.

Good luck. Hope there is something helpful in all of that.

 

[frw1985]

I think we all want the perfect chicken. But that is different in everyone eyes.
I just want to be able to hatch my own chicks for fresh eggs and meat, I know it won't be perfect but has to be better than what we are getting in the store.
Why do you think the Golden taste better than the other colors .?
For those of you with Show bred Wyandottes what is your average on size and number of eggs per week.
Also those of you with Hatchery bred what are your numbers.
Just wanting to see what the averages are out their. I would just like to be able to compare how mine will measure up.
Have you found that they do better being raised on higher or lower Protien feed.?
I will be raising these first for breeders and will cull what is not breeding quality.
Also before you kill your birds for meat do you pen them to fatten them before you butcher? Or feed out on a certain recipe. No trying to change subject!
This has been years ago , but my grandmother would not eat a chicken that had not been fed out on corn for several weeks.
They also had to be out in a pen off of the ground. She also fed them green vegetables daily. also their water was changed out daily and freshened.
Thanks for all the info!m
Enjoying this thread!

 

[dfr1973]

... I should push the cockerels in particular, feeding them like I do Cornish-Rocks once I can tell cockerels from pullets. What I have done: first four weeks 24% chick starter, then next 4 weeks on 20% chick grower (during which time I should be able to tell gender and separate). Then for potential breeders and pullets, step down to 18% chick crumble while the others still get 20% and all are on the grass at this point. By the 4 week mark, everyone is offered fermented scratch and a little dry scratch.

My understanding is that CornishXrocks are not pushed, but are limit-fed, reducing both the volume of feed offered and the protein available to slow their growth. (Otherwise they outgrow their skeletons and internal organs.) I am trying to accomplish the opposite, increase early growth in a strain that doesn't flesh out for months, so feeding them like cornishxrocks seems counterintuitive.
Best wishes,
Angela

First thing, I should have stressed that I'm pretty sure I told her about how *I* raise up a batch of CRs ... I don't do it like a commercial broiler house. I start off feeding four times a day, then down to three times a day, they come out from the heat around four weeks old (instead of 6-8 weeks heat), and I put mine on grass in tractors. I figure why raise the CRs like a commercial broiler house, when I can get the same thing in the grocery for a lower cost.

George has an excellent reply, and I'll just add a current personal anecdote to it. I bought an extra dozen red broilers in January, and took them to my friend Lynn up the highway (along with 75 assorted bantie chicks). She still has a heat lamp on for her chicks, even in the day. She still free-feeds everyone as well, with a couple 5lb feeders hanging in the brooder. She hasn't let them out of the larger brooder pen either. Her broiler chicks are bigger than mine, mainly since she starts all her chicks similar to CRs.

I have been inside a commercial broiler house (PEE-YUWWW!!!) and the main limits are mostly in the third week, and at night. They don't move far from a feeder/waterer unless they have an excellent reason. The feeders are taken up at night, otherwise the chicks would eat straight 24 hours. Contrast that with my usual method of set feeding times, and once they are out of the brooder I don't use a feed dish - just scatter the food on the ground for them since they will scatter it themselves, sometimes flipping the food dish upside-down and covering their grub in the process. Even when I raise CRs, they will taste different from the store-bought commercially-raised ones, just because I do different chick-raising.

I hope this is coherent enough.

 

[Beer can]

My flock has ate significantly less this winter confined to their large coop. It's been a average below zero with knee deep snow.
They ate much more last summer free ranging. I don't know if it is because they were still growing or all the running around made them hungrier. I thought free ranging would save me feed $. I'm going to start this spring keeping them in there coop and large run and supplement greens the wife didn't like the poop all over anyway.

 

[dfr1973]

I would appreciate clarification, thank you.
Best wishes,
Angela

Here is what Luanne says:
Quote: So she meant it more in respect to selecting breeders for early growth.

 

[Our Roost]

What dressed weight do you want your birds to weigh at 16 weeks? And, how much do they weigh now at 16 weeks? Birds reach a peak in weight size and stop growing. Some birds dont reach that full growth weight until they are 20-24 weeks or even older. You have to decide at what age and weight you want them to be at cull time using 16 weeks as an example. A bird could be 4 1/2 #s at 16 weeks and only gain another # at age 20-24 weeks or older. On the other hand, they may peak early and stop growing completely. You will have to monitor and log weights to determine what weight you are happy with and when you want that to be. You can use any breed and feed you wnat but you have to set a goal to start with.

 

[bramblefir]

So here are my plans for 2015. Let me start by saying that I haven't decided what breed(s) to focus on and so currently I'm running a variety of breeds and flock mating. I've been culling out breeds as I go along and using this "play time" to learn about selection, genetics, and general poultry breeding. I'm also a bit limited on the number of males I can keep as my husband dislikes the noise and I'd rather not get divorced over chickens.

My most general goals for the flock are:
- A good size bird for butchering at 12-16 weeks.
- Pullets laying at 24 weeks and laying absolutely no less than 220 eggs per year.
- Excellent mothering abilities. I'd like to eventually hatch only under broodies.
- Alert birds who hustle for forage.

In early April I'll be culling down the hens to just my favorites: Black Langshan, Speckled Sussex, Dark Brahma, and Blue Andalusian. The cocks currently are a Black Langshan and a SS Hamburg. I will cull the SS Hamburg in the fall once I have selected potential replacements from the next two hatches.

I'll be selecting heavily for size with the cockerels and plan to cull out the bottom 50% after weighing at 12 weeks. Of the remaining cockerels I'll select for width and depth and then for shank feathering as I have found that the feather-legged breeds are a little easier on our somewhat delicate soil. Other points that I'll be taking into consideration are general vigor and tightness of feathering. No selections will be made based on coloring or comb type at this point.

The pullets will be culled primarily based on general vigor, width and depth, and age at POL. Other selection points are mothering abilities, tightness of feathering, # of eggs, egg size, and length of laying periods. Again, no selections based on coloring or comb type. I'm also not focusing on feathered shanks with the females since it's easy enough to breed in.

I'll continue weighing all birds remaining after the selection process at 16 weeks, 6 months, and 1 year to get a feel for overall size and growth in the flock. Number of eggs will be tracked as well, although it'll be # of eggs of each color rather than of each pullet/hen.

Other birds on the property are some pullets in from a couple of hatcheries. They're primarily breeds that I wanted to try out, but some are for our daughter who wanted to have her own chickens. Of mine I'll cull out any breeds I don't find myself loving. These will be our last chicks to get from a hatchery.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Angela, you can feed them higher protein feed, and up to the upper limits when they are on grass. Confined, there is a point where you waste money, and do more harm than good...You have to decide where that is with your own birds...You will get to know them, and what you like for them.

Currently the entire flock is on gamechick starter because the Dorkings did so well on it. The Wyandotte pullets and cockerels have grown larger skeletons and put on flesh while maintaining their show-room gloss, so it appears to agree with them, too. Even my penned hens are producing dark orange yolks, so I think they are getting enough fresh greens, though it is about time to start sprouting greens for them.

...One starts in the brooder box... They will grow faster if they have access to heat longer...You want to avoid extremes either way early in their development..avoid checks in the rate of growth. You want to beat the heat too...They will fill out earlier if they are confined to house and run... Get (the cockerels)away from the pullets as soon as you can tell the difference... You do not want to push your pullets. If you feed a high protein feed, drop the levels once you can separate them...

I have no difficulty keeping a corner of the brooder warm, with cooler temps in the opposite corner. Waiting for these pullets to come into lay got me off to a late start, and I will probably only get half of this years chicks hatched before hot weather gets here. To help compensate, I will only compare culling weights on full siblings hatched about the same time. After ~ 4 weeks in the brooder, the chicks go into repurposed rabbit cages, where it will be easy for me to separate the sexes, and switch the pullets to 20% feed. At about 8 weeks of age, they go into pens on the ground, one for each sex, and at 12 weeks into hoop houses until I can do the 6 and 12 month culls. The porch poops, coyotes, coons and neighboring dogs convinced me they should not free range.

Concerning selection, improvements are had in increments. You have to hatch and raise enough to select. Especially when you are concerned with production. There has to be enough grown all of the way out to make final choices. ...You have to decide at what age is appropriate for your birds. ... It has to be done consistently from year to year....There is a link between how many hens we breed, and how many eggs we hatch.... Keeping the flock vigorous is important...You want to select from the most vigorous cocks and hens, all of the time. Health and vigor is always priority number one...

Good luck. Hope there is something helpful in all of that.

This first year, I am hatching 25 chicks from each of the 4 possible pairings, primarily to see if one mating nicks better, or if one of the parents throws much better offspring than the others. Culling those with poor vigor, (including low hatch rates,) at any time they are noted. After choosing next years breeders, I need to hatch enough to maintain their current assets, (pleasant temperaments, lovely coloring and lacing (culling splashes, blacks and poorly colored/marked birds,) good rate of lay, good sized eggs, and at-least-as-large-as-Standard size,) while still having enough birds to select individuals with earlier maturity. Hopefully, I can do this while overwintering no more than a dozen birds and hatching about a hundred per year. That should keep me busy for a few years, lol. Thank you very much.

...more in respect to selecting breeders for early growth.

ok, selecting for early maturity was the original plan.

What dressed weight do you want your birds to weigh at 16 weeks? And, how much do they weigh now at 16 weeks?... You can use any breed and feed you wnat but you have to set a goal to start with.

Since this is my first year growing out this strain, I haven't a clue what they will weigh at any given age in my climate, under my husbandry/management style. That is the whole point of accumulating data on them, so I will have an objective record, not just my fallible memory. My goal is to have large "yard" eggs in the cartons, plump fryers in the freezer, and happy chicken noises in my backyard from a vigorous, contented, self-sustaining flock of pretty chickens in a recognized variety of a Standard breed. The devil is in working out the details.

Thank you all very much,
Angela

 

[neopolitancrazy]

So here are my plans for 2015...

My most general goals for the flock are:
- ... laying absolutely no less than 220 eggs per year.
- Excellent mothering abilities...
- ...birds who hustle for forage.

... The cocks currently are a Black Langshan and a SS Hamburg....
I'll be selecting heavily for size with the cockerels..

I have found that the feather-legged breeds are a little easier on our somewhat delicate soil...

I like the way you are trying out different kinds of chickens to see what you like best, and what works best in your system. I think we learn more by doing, observing and reflecting than all the obsessing/planning and researching. I don't understand some of what you posted though.

There are 365 days in a year, and if your hen molts quickly, she will be out of production 30 of those days. If she spends 2 months raising a single clutch of chicks, she is down to 270 days left in the year. Throw in raising a second clutch of chicks, and she has only 210 days to lay the 220 eggs you want out of her. Is that what you meant?

If you want larger size in your flock, why are you using a Hamburg cock?

If you want birds to take it easy on your delicate soil, why do you want them to hustle for their food? I thought hustling chickens meant scratching chickens, which are hard on the soil and plant roots, and the unwanted pests in the soil. (I have used my chickens to reduce the scorpions in my yard. Worked pretty well, but they left a lot of poop in inconvenient spots. In other years, they scratched up and ate all my new daylilies.)

Best wishes,
Angela