BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[southernmomma]

Ok...I don't mind...chickens were first and formost bred for food production. Those who breed for 'show' generally fail to include production when working toward getting the blue ribbons.

All one need to do is read some of these breed threads to see how difficult it is to get fertile eggs and most of them have hatchery stock on the side to produce eggs for their families and even for sale.

What more proof do you need that function is what counts in the real world of eating or starving?

Hhhmmmm....is this for me? lol, I'm a little lost. The question was for my own information I'm not trying to make some sort of obtuse point. Surely you don't think I was making a backhanded comment on your journey to SOP. I posted the question here because of the thread content and the fact that the OP, you, have decades of breeding for production to speak from.

M

 

[hellbender]

Hhhmmmm....is this for me? lol, I'm a little lost. The question was for my own information I'm not trying to make some sort of obtuse point. Surely you don't think I was making a backhanded comment on your journey to SOP. I posted the question here because of the thread content and the fact that the OP, you, have decades of breeding for production to speak from.

M

Not at all...never entered my mind! Besides, that is now a dead end. We've decided that after all the fuss (and expense) we really don't want to deal with breeding birds for show. It's just not 'US' and we had our fill of showing with dogs and horses.

Take it easy on yourself!!

 

[southernmomma]

Not at all...never entered my mind! Besides, that is now a dead end. We've decided that after all the fuss (and expense) we really don't want to deal with breeding birds for show. It's just not 'US' and we had our fill of showing with dogs and horses.

Take it easy on yourself!!

Oh!! Most excellent....on both counts

Perhaps then I will tap you for some information. Privately; I don't want to poke the bear.

M

 

[hellbender]

Oh!! Most excellent....on both counts

Perhaps then I will tap you for some information. Privately; I don't want to poke the bear.

M

 

[mithious]

Ok...I don't mind...chickens were first and formost bred for food production. Those who breed for 'show' generally fail to include production when working toward getting the blue ribbons.

All one need to do is read some of these breed threads to see how difficult it is to get fertile eggs and most of them have hatchery stock on the side to produce eggs for their families and even for sale.

What more proof do you need that function is what counts in the real world of eating or starving?

Maybe on here that it true, but the facts are that the "heritage" birds DO live and lay longer. A second? cousin of my Dominique's is 4 and still lays an egg a day. You'd be hard put to find a commercially bred bird do that. There are a lot of breeders that do breed for show only, but there are also a lot of breeders that breed for both, SOP and utility. The reason you don't see them as much, is that they are not on forums talking about it, they are simply doing it. Plus other agricultural things, like produce, or livestock and simply don't have the time to sit on forums and talk about it. I am glad we have this forum, as being where I live, so far, I have not met anyone near enough to me, that I can work with. So come to forums, like BYC to gain knowledge. The fact is, Heritage birds have lots of qualities that the hatchery birds do not. Better health, bred for immunity, longer life spans, longer laying ability, better tasting meat. and more of it.

The commercial industry has mixed and bred birds for one thing, take the cornishx for example, Yes, they grow quickly and are at slaughter much more quickly than a Standard bred bird. But that is their ONLY function and many have health issues like legs, runny poo's ect. The layers are good for 3 years tops then they tend to develop issues like prolapsed vents, eggbound and their health is fair, and egg laying slows considerably after 18 months, and they don't have the natural immunities. Now some of that could be solved by husbandry. Look at what Beekissed has done with her meat crosses and done successfully. But all in all, the commercial birds just are not a good back yard flock. IMHO

Could a commercial layer quality bird be a better bird if crossed with a "heritage" bird? I believe yes. Would you ever get them to the SOP? I highly doubt it. BUT if your goal is to produce just layers, or a true dual purpose bird, you simply cross the two types of birds and have a GREAT dual purpose/layer bird/flock with the benefits of the heritage bird in a few generations or so. I want BOTH, to breed to the SOP AND have the utility. They did it before, so no reason it can't be done again! and is being done again. Just not as publicly!

My Dominique's are a great example of that. They are bred to the SOP and have great utility in both eggs and meat. Do you see their breeders on here? I haven't much. Only on my state page, and not often. My point? One, that birds can be both and that it IS being done with the heritage birds. There are other points but that is the basic premise.

 

[southernmomma]

Maybe on here that it true, but the facts are that the "heritage" birds DO live and lay longer. A second? cousin of my Dominique's is 4 and still lays an egg a day. You'd be hard put to find a commercially bred bird do that. There are a lot of breeders that do breed for show only, but there are also a lot of breeders that breed for both, SOP and utility. The reason you don't see them as much, is that they are not on forums talking about it, they are simply doing it. Plus other agricultural things, like produce, or livestock and simply don't have the time to sit on forums and talk about it. I am glad we have this forum, as being where I live, so far, I have not met anyone near enough to me, that I can work with. So come to forums, like BYC to gain knowledge. The fact is, Heritage birds have lots of qualities that the hatchery birds do not. Better health, bred for immunity, longer life spans, longer laying ability, better tasting meat. and more of it.

The commercial industry has mixed and bred birds for one thing, take the cornishx for example, Yes, they grow quickly and are at slaughter much more quickly than a Standard bred bird. But that is their ONLY function and many have health issues like legs, runny poo's ect. The layers are good for 3 years tops then they tend to develop issues like prolapsed vents, eggbound and their health is fair, and egg laying slows considerably after 18 months, and they don't have the natural immunities. Now some of that could be solved by husbandry. Look at what Beekissed has done with her meat crosses and done successfully. But all in all, the commercial birds just are not a good back yard flock. IMHO

Could a commercial layer quality bird be a better bird if crossed with a "heritage" bird? I believe yes. Would you ever get them to the SOP? I highly doubt it. BUT if your goal is to produce just layers, or a true dual purpose bird, you simply cross the two types of birds and have a GREAT dual purpose/layer bird/flock with the benefits of the heritage bird in a few generations or so. I want BOTH, to breed to the SOP AND have the utility. They did it before, so no reason it can't be done again! and is being done again. Just not as publicly!

My Dominique's are a great example of that. They are bred to the SOP and have great utility in both eggs and meat. Do you see their breeders on here? I haven't much. Only on my state page, and not often. My point? One, that birds can be both and that it IS being done with the heritage birds. There are other points but that is the basic premise.

You raise an excellent question, perhaps a part 2 of my original query. A standard bred bird from a utility line may perhaps be a better starting point. From where I'm standing a type breeder even more difficult to find and make contact with. Maybe worth the trouble though.

M

 

[hellbender]

Maybe on here that it true, but the facts are that the "heritage" birds DO live and lay longer. A second? cousin of my Dominique's is 4 and still lays an egg a day. You'd be hard put to find a commercially bred bird do that. There are a lot of breeders that do breed for show only, but there are also a lot of breeders that breed for both, SOP and utility. The reason you don't see them as much, is that they are not on forums talking about it, they are simply doing it. Plus other agricultural things, like produce, or livestock and simply don't have the time to sit on forums and talk about it. I am glad we have this forum, as being where I live, so far, I have not met anyone near enough to me, that I can work with. So come to forums, like BYC to gain knowledge. The fact is, Heritage birds have lots of qualities that the hatchery birds do not. Better health, bred for immunity, longer life spans, longer laying ability, better tasting meat. and more of it.

The commercial industry has mixed and bred birds for one thing, take the cornishx for example, Yes, they grow quickly and are at slaughter much more quickly than a Standard bred bird. But that is their ONLY function and many have health issues like legs, runny poo's ect. The layers are good for 3 years tops then they tend to develop issues like prolapsed vents, eggbound and their health is fair, and egg laying slows considerably after 18 months, and they don't have the natural immunities. Now some of that could be solved by husbandry. Look at what Beekissed has done with her meat crosses and done successfully. But all in all, the commercial birds just are not a good back yard flock. IMHO

Could a commercial layer quality bird be a better bird if crossed with a "heritage" bird? I believe yes. Would you ever get them to the SOP? I highly doubt it. BUT if your goal is to produce just layers, or a true dual purpose bird, you simply cross the two types of birds and have a GREAT dual purpose/layer bird/flock with the benefits of the heritage bird in a few generations or so. I want BOTH, to breed to the SOP AND have the utility. They did it before, so no reason it can't be done again! and is being done again. Just not as publicly!

My Dominique's are a great example of that. They are bred to the SOP and have great utility in both eggs and meat. Do you see their breeders on here? I haven't much. Only on my state page, and not often. My point? One, that birds can be both and that it IS being done with the heritage birds. There are other points but that is the basic premise.

Yours is a long post with lots of 'points'.... I'll respond by making only one....Every chicken, no matter it's linage has a finite number of eggs and they are hatched with that number of eggs. Calling them 'Heritage', Mutts, or Hatchery-Stock can never change that FACT.

My birds lay four years and do so prolifically. When they are 4 years of age or near, they are culled. Ok..so I squeezed in a second point.

I have no idea what beekissed has done. The last I heard, she was trying to raise a bunch of free mixed breeds and that's all I need to know.

 

[hellbender]

You raise an excellent question, perhaps a part 2 of my original query. A standard bred bird from a utility line may perhaps be a better starting point. From where I'm standing a type breeder even more difficult to find and make contact with. Maybe worth the trouble though.

M

We must all take our own paths, and we learn from each step if we watch where we put our feet.

 

[mithious]

Yours is a long post with lots of 'points'....

Which is what I meant by my basic premis.



I'll respond by making only one....Every chicken, no matter it's linage has a finite number of eggs and they are hatched with that number of eggs. Calling them 'Heritage', Mutts, or Hatchery-Stock can never change that FACT.

That is true, but when you take genetics into account, the "heritage" or standard bred birds have the ability to be great dual purpose birds. Take the old time E.B.Thompson Barred Plymouth Rocks. They were in back yard flocks all over the world, not for show, but for utility, and especially here in the US and had both the utility and were bred to the SOP. Yet he won for 27 years straight with those birds. The SOP was written with the utility of the bird in mind first. A bird that has the build of an SOP bird has the right "conformation" to be a utility bird or dual purpose bird....just because some show breeders have inbred their birds to the point of issues, does not detract from their genetics and that they are a better all round utility bird and there is a great need of younger people/farmers too, to get into these breeds to bring them back to what they were originally meant to be.

My birds lay four years and do so prolifically.

that was the point I was making by people's husbandry, you CAN prolong laying in a commercial bird by proper husbandry



When they are 4 years of age or near, they are culled.

That is one of the differences in commercial vs heritage, Heritage are not culled at 4 years and lots keep on laying much longer.

Ok..so I squeezed in a second point.

I have no idea what beekissed has done. The last I heard, she was trying to raise a bunch of free mixed breeds and that's all I need to know.

Was just using her husbandry with the meat crosses as an example not implying that anyone should need to know anything about it, unless they choose to.

I put out information to make a point, that is why I said basic premise.

I am not trying to sway anyone in either direction...why I said, IMHO...and that is what it is, my opinion. I have seen others state theirs, is mine not allowed?

 

[hellbender]

Not only is your point of view 'allowed' it's greatly respected and appreciated.

By the way, I have always had a very strong affinity for the Doms. If I didn't have so many birds and more on the way...

That breed just might take up some room in out new facility. I've read all the info I can get on them on the net and

really wouldn't mind having a few of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RON