BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Fire Ant Farm]

I'm sure that he was referring to leaving a cock with a hen for however long she needed to clean out plus however long he needed to get a set of eggs out of her. With my games sometimes I rotate a cock between hens, every other day he wakes up in a different pen. You could in theory rotate him between 7 hens in this manner, probably much better three or four. In my situation it is the cock that I have to watch out for to get all bedraggled, these girls are vicious.

If you keep an animal for milk or eggs, it is much more difficult to quantify the males input. In situations like this it pays to use the females genetics as much as possible. The best hen crossed on a cock whose daughters are proven producers, one of her sons in another pen and another in another. If you have a hen that lays once a week in with a bunch that lay every other day, how are you going to keep her eggs out of the incubator? If you keep her son as a cock and put him over your ten best hens, you will be going backwards. If nothing else, pair mating would show you which hens were most productive.

I've read that a hen can produce fertile eggs up to a month after breeding. How long should a hen be kept from a cock to insure she's not still producing his chicks? Conversely how long should she be with a new cock to start producing fertile eggs from him?

(PS Thanks for all the responses on my previous post asking about pair matings and wearing out the hens. There's a lot of good knowledge in this group.)

Yeah, this is why I asked for the clarification. I've read in references (and on BYC) about the length of time to wait between cock/mating exposures if one wants to be confident of parentage, but there' s a heck of a lot of on-the-ground experience in folks on this thread, and I wanted to see if anyone had additional notes to add on the subject.

Potentially dumb question: Do folks who do pair breeding have integration issues when separating hens during breeding and then reintegrating the hens together?

- Ant Farm

 

[Beekissed]

I don't, but I suspect that is due to free ranging. So much wide open spaces and the chickens never go a day without seeing one another, even if a few are confined to the breeding area. Everything like that is easier with free ranging....new birds to the flock, rejoining mama and chicks to the flock, integrating chicks without a mama, etc.

 

[varidgerunner]

Yeah, this is why I asked for the clarification. I've read in references (and on BYC) about the length of time to wait between cock/mating exposures if one wants to be confident of parentage, but there' s a heck of a lot of on-the-ground experience in folks on this thread, and I wanted to see if anyone had additional notes to add on the subject.

Potentially dumb question: Do folks who do pair breeding have integration issues when separating hens during breeding and then reintegrating the hens together?

- Ant Farm

I single or double mate my gamefowl but reintegration problems are to be expected so everything is penned separately anyway. Hens with broods can be free ranged from their individual pens that are relatively spread out. With most egg birds a strong flock rooster would keep re-integration issues under control.
Many references from old gamefowl breeders seemed to indicate that 3 or 4 days under a vigorous rooster would insure that most offspring would be his. A hen bred a single time may be fertile for 21 days, but in practice she won't lay many eggs fertilized from a previous rooster after a few days of being kept with a rooster of your choice. If it was really a matter of certainty 21 days would be needed to be absolutely sure. I have also read that hens have some choice on which rooster they store up in the sperm duct. I do know that if you free range hens around tied cocks they certainly all pick their own favorite. Sometimes I wonder if hardiness and longevity traits would be better picked through the eye of a hen than the eye of a human.

 

[ronott1]

I single or double mate my gamefowl but reintegration problems are to be expected so everything is penned separately anyway. Hens with broods can be free ranged from their individual pens that are relatively spread out. With most egg birds a strong flock rooster would keep re-integration issues under control.
Many references from old gamefowl breeders seemed to indicate that 3 or 4 days under a vigorous rooster would insure that most offspring would be his. A hen bred a single time may be fertile for 21 days, but in practice she won't lay many eggs fertilized from a previous rooster after a few days of being kept with a rooster of your choice. If it was really a matter of certainty 21 days would be needed to be absolutely sure. I have also read that hens have some choice on which rooster they store up in the sperm duct. I do know that if you free range hens around tied cocks they certainly all pick their own favorite. Sometimes I wonder if hardiness and longevity traits would be better picked through the eye of a hen than the eye of a human.

There is no way that such a short time will do this. See my earlier post from today. Hens have storage glands and are not like humans in that regard. If you are only waiting three or four days, you are not getting the genetics you think you are getting.

One thing we can do is look at poultry studies.

 

[gjensen]

If you wait a few weeks, and then keep a new male with her for a week, you can feel safe about what you are getting.

Generally, you could say less than that, but not certainly. Most of the time, after two weeks away, and one with the new, you would be ok. It is the off chance of being wrong that might make us wait a little longer.

 

[varidgerunner]

I have heard from old breeders and used in practice with feather footed versus non feather legged, white ear versus non white ear. After about seven days you would be hard pressed to get anything from the first rooster if actively paired with a vigorous rooster, even if your life depended on it. I am well aware of what the textbooks say, and am well aware of how a sperm duct works. I am convinced that a hen can jettison her sperm duct if she wants to, I know she can't get rid of every cell, but it is a game of odds. 21 days is the textbook answer, but if you are working with something rare that doesn't lay a lot of eggs and you have one start to lay unexpectedly and you throw her in with your choice cock, you might want to start keeping eggs before the 21 days is up. In case you do get a couple off chicks, If you can't tell which ones are the right breeding once they are grown, then it probably didn't really matter which cock they are out of anyway. In actual practice it is preferable to pair them in advance of egg laying.

 

[DesertChic]

Well, I got up this morning, went outside, and was greeted by puffy unhappy looking Speckled Sussex chicks and blood on the bedding. Cocci.

Within about 15 minutes, they were all dosed with a strong dose of Amprol in their water (at 7 weeks they're fortunately still small enough for me to hold them and get them all to drink some). We're just past a damp cool week or so, so all chicken housing was due for refresh, but I only got the NH and NN pens done after work yesterday before it got dark, so the Sussex bedding refresh this AM turned into an entire bedding cleanout and replacement.

All this before I had brushed my teeth or even taken out my retainer! (Much less had any coffee.)

Finally finished, and got the Cream Legbar bedding refreshed while I was at it, and am FINALLY sitting down to my morning coffee at 11:30-ish. I was supposed to put the roof on the coop this morning - but I need a break before strapping on the tool belt.

They're all napping in the sun now. One SS in particularly looks more miserable than all the rest, so I think she's the one in danger. She got a couple good doses - she's walking around, and will drink, but I know this can go fast (they were fine yesterday from what I could tell), so I've got my fingers crossed that she'll get better throughout the day.

I think I need a nap...

- Ant Farm

Yikes! Here's to hoping for a quick recovery!

 

[lpatelski]

Hi Everyone,

I guess I should have introduced myself before I jumped in with questions. I raise grass fed & finished beef and all natural pork outside of Atlanta. I've also always had chickens but really just big flappin' yardbirds... never anything SOP. I sell beef and pork and have sold nest eggs in the past but got tired of the eggs because of the heavy workload of coordinating customer pickups. I often spent as much time selling a $5 dozen eggs as I did selling a $500 share of beef. So I took off a couple of years from the chickens. Now I'm interested in going at it again... albeit from a different angle and am interested in working with White Dorkings and developing a sideline business on my farm of selling Christmas Capons. I'm hoping by spring to have the foundation of my breeding stock and a number of cockerels to practice on. Those practice birds will likely be something other than White Dorkings. With any luck I should have a trial run of 20 or so capons ready to sell next Christmas. So here I am hoping to learn all I can about "Breeding for Production...Eggs and or Meat". And am particularly hoping someone can answer my earlier questions about how long a hen has to be isolated from a cock to stop passing on his genes and how long a hen must be exposed to a new cock before her eggs start to be his. Thanks in advance for any input.

Happy Grazing,
Anthony

Where are you getting your production stock from? This sounds like a project I would be interested in watching. my game hen project. Pure Dark Cornish roo over Cornish Roaster hen from mcMurrays. They dress-out at 2 pounds full breasted 4 weeks. They gain about 1/2 pound a week.

 

[gjensen]

I have heard from old breeders and used in practice with feather footed versus non feather legged, white ear versus non white ear. After about seven days you would be hard pressed to get anything from the first rooster if actively paired with a vigorous rooster, even if your life depended on it. I am well aware of what the textbooks say, and am well aware of how a sperm duct works. I am convinced that a hen can jettison her sperm duct if she wants to, I know she can't get rid of every cell, but it is a game of odds. 21 days is the textbook answer, but if you are working with something rare that doesn't lay a lot of eggs and you have one start to lay unexpectedly and you throw her in with your choice cock, you might want to start keeping eggs before the 21 days is up. In case you do get a couple off chicks, If you can't tell which ones are the right breeding once they are grown, then it probably didn't really matter which cock they are out of anyway. In actual practice it is preferable to pair them in advance of egg laying.

I agree that you can get away with much shorter intervals. There is variability in the results. A surprising amount of variability. It can vary from bird to bird etc. etc.

It is better to recommend on the side of caution. It is true that a hen can be fertile from a cock for up to 30 days. It is best to recommend accordingly.

I always went the two weeks off and a week on, and never had a problem. I wait a little longer now. I schedule accordingly.

Most of the time, we see eggs candling clear by the third week. And that is the most certain way to determine when it is safe. By candling the eggs.

I would rather be certain than speculate.

It is best to recommend what we know, though there are many variables and exceptions worth discussing.

Our setting and hatching should be intentional. There should be a process that includes a schedule. This schedule should take account of all that is possible.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Yikes! Here's to hoping for a quick recovery!

Thanks! More than one had it, but one looked worse than the rest of them. As the day went on, she was not worse, but not necessarily obviously better, and still puffed up like a brown feather ball with a face and beak. I made sure she got a good drink/dose every hour or so - I knew she was not feeling well because she didn't fuss about being held. I didn't know what I would find this AM - but there she was, digging in the bedding with her sisters (they like to really dig like they're digging their way to China.) And she's eating (and making a mess) with everyone else now. And no blood on any of the bedding. Whew! Glad I caught it when I did - if it had been a week day, it might have been too late.

I spent the day FINALLY getting the roof put on the new coop, and several times while I was up on the ladder, the neighborhood hawk (a pretty small one) made a pass at the Naked Necks. He couldn't get a good angle in their paddock to get one because they would huddle by the fence line, but I ended up festooning some overhead protection everywhere. I may have gotten a little carried away:



- Ant Farm