BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[dfr1973]

So, I went to caponize MeatHead, the lone surviving chick from my first incubator hatch ... and it looked different in there. Apparently, this chick is MISS MeatHead, thankyouverramuch. I guess it's no huge surprise, given that all five of the red broiler pullets I've kept for breeding, I originally thought were cockerels. Now I am wondering about the one Meatie in my current hatch, which I thought was a pullet the first couple weeks, then thought it's a cockerel, and is in with the GLW cockerels holding its own for its share of the food.

Then again, the cull pullet certainly held her own too ... one of the first three to the food despite what turned out to be a completely dislocated hip.

 

[dfr1973]

Note Tank - he has really fallen off a lot. He also seems to be delayed in maturity compared to the others, at least to my eye. Comb seems smallish, and oddly, he has very little tail development relative to the other boys. Looks "like a girl" a little bit, to my eye. (I'll try to get an updated photo later. ) In the pecking order he's quite low. Is this just late maturity?

Anybody got ideas about why Tank's weights/growth is doing this? Does it change our minds about his merits as a breeder?

- Ant Farm

FAF ... could it be that Tank is actually a pullet? At 13 weeks, I would expect the largest cockerel to start reddening up and kazooing, along with perhaps starting to grow shiny hackle and saddle feathers. I do know with my small test clutch over the summer, Bertha was the largest for the first several months. I'm just glad I could tell Bertha was a pullet ... unlike Miss Meathead this morning.

 

[hellbender]

I resemble these remarks. I have always culled the sick or hormonally challenged livestock as soon as identified. I don't have enough birds on the ground to cull for every thing right now, but in the interests of increasing egg production, I have already begun to cull out smallish eggs and eggs with blood/meat spots. When those traits are conquered, I'll cull the slow-molters, then the late-POLs, then the ones that need winter lights to produce, then tackle the cloacal exams, lol. I originally got into this for the highest quality eggs available, and the project has expanded from there. I never thought I would be violating a chicken's orifice, or giving them "Brazilians."

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[gjensen]

For those of you on the Naked Neck thread, pardon the cross-post.

Everyone's 13 weeks old - weighing day. Let me post this real quick.

Interestingly, several have fallen off this week (I wonder if the stress of the hawk pressure this week would have an effect? Or perhaps that is just what happens at this age). Note Tank - he has really fallen off a lot. He also seems to be delayed in maturity compared to the others, at least to my eye. Comb seems smallish, and oddly, he has very little tail development relative to the other boys. Looks "like a girl" a little bit, to my eye. (I'll try to get an updated photo later. ) In the pecking order he's quite low. Is this just late maturity?

As they get bigger, weighing in gets harder to do, and I always wonder at my accuracy (though usually it can be verified because a given trend continues the following week). To that end, I don't know what's up with Puppy - she actually lost weight per this data point, makes me wonder if that was accurate - it's always a little nuts on weighing day and they often don't sit still. She seems fine (though they can fake that, I know) - I need to check her over more carefully later today, and maybe reweigh. Soon the girls will be able to move into their coop and get some relief from the boys (starting on hardware cloth today), and perhaps their growth will improve then.

Anybody got ideas about why Tank's weights/growth is doing this? Does it change our minds about his merits as a breeder?


- Ant Farm

No. Not on that point alone, but a collection of evidence is revealing. We cannot evaluate a bird based on a snap shot in time.

Kind of like the egg discussion. By a certain point in time, we know who to exclude. The bottom remains clear early and along the way. Then there is the middle. They take a little longer to identify. Now the top is in a category of their own. You have to take them all of the way to discern who is really who.

That is the way it is with all selection points. The bottom % is obvious. You kill those along the way. The middle takes a little more time to sort out, but as you are killing them, a new bottom becomes apparent. The process is on going, but there is the best birds that take some time to sort through.

There is always a bottom %, a middle group, and the "few elite". Variability works that way. A few at either extreme, and the majority in the middle.

You have enough information to cull the bottom half now. If you want to see how the curve looks for them, leave them. But they are at eating age, or close.

Something else to consider here. Are they molting into their new feathers? Do you see a lot of feathers laying around? If not, you will very soon. It seams that with these, you should be at that point. Once they begin this molt, the rate of growth will drop. For these, I would guess that they would be at or around 75% of their adult weight. The big cull and processing should be around this molt.

Now is time to really be eyeing your top 4 birds. That top third has your best birds. Rate of growth and weight is not the only selection point. You need to know the type, and start eyeing type. Start handling them. Feel the thighs etc. etc. Who would have the best carcass? Who has the most capacity? Think of what they might contribute to the Hen. Here is a lot to consider. Your top 4 contains the best bird, but which is it? Who is the most vigorous?

Of 12 birds, only keep a couple for breeding.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Has anybody designed a good RFID tag and reader system lately? I'm thinking that would be the easiest way to go (labour wise) to identify the best layers. It could be hooked up to a system that identifies the egg too- haven't figured that one out yet. There was a thread on this site from a year or two ago, but a lot happens in the computer world in a year. I know very little about computers but it seems like it would be do- able.

 

[bnjrob]

Has anybody designed a good RFID tag and reader system lately? I'm thinking that would be the easiest way to go (labour wise) to identify the best layers. It could be hooked up to a system that identifies the egg too- haven't figured that one out yet. There was a thread on this site from a year or two ago, but a lot happens in the computer world in a year. I know very little about computers but it seems like it would be do- able.

I got an email about a year or so ago from someone that was working on a device to electronically track when hens were in the nest box, meant to track egg laying. They were wanting to know if folks would be interested in funding/buying their work. In theory it sounds good, but we frequently have hens that get in the nest box and stay in there to rest or to get away from another hen or a cock that is annoying them. So it wouldn't be useful for tracking egg production for us.

 

[bnjrob]

Has anyone thought about trying to breed for Mareks disease resistance? It's a disease I've noticed in the literature for years but have never really paid attention to. I guess it just never seemed important with a small flock of layers... other than to get the vaccine whenever ordering chicks. Now that I'm looking at committing time and resources to a specific breed it seems a bit more important. I've read there are breeds and strains with more resistance and there is a B21 (I think that's it) gene that provides some resistance to Mareks. Does anyone know of chicken breeds or particular lines that tend to be more resistant or that carry that gene? Also does anyone know of a company able to test for that gene? I've done a few Google searches which mainly turn up highly technical stuff from universities but not much practical info.

Chickens that are kept around turkeys can build up resistance because the turkey herpes virus is similar enough to Marek's that it offers the chickens some immunity to Marek's. Most people that I know do not worry about Marek's. If you have a bird that gets it and they recover, then great, if they die, then their immune system was obviously not able to fight it off. And generally when one bird is exposed to a disease, all the rest are exposed also and are building up immunity that you can't see. They can build up immunity even if none if the flock show signs of Marek's - you just have no idea what germs your chickens are exposed to and what kind of immunity your chickens are building up - which is why it is good to have them exposed to things instead of trying to keep them in a sterile bubble. The only people that I know that worry about Marek's are backyard pet chicken keepers because the hatcheries play up that they can vaccinate chicks for Marek's and is thus another source of income from people scared to death that their favorite chicken will get Marek's and die.

I consider Marek's to be kinda like chicken pox - kids have been getting chicken pox for eons, and yes, there are some that wind up with complications and become very sick or die. But in the grand scheme of things and the MILLIONS of kids that get chicken pox, the number of kids that actually become seriously ill or die from chicken pox is quite small. But the pharmaceutical companies only give the numbers that sound horrific to parents and the parents become convinced that their kids are going to be the tiny percentage of children that die from chicken pox if they don't get vaccinated, and thus the pharma company has another good income source.

I just read an article yesterday written by a commercial poultry vet that works for Sanderson Farms about biosecurity. It didn't impress me. The article discussed all the disinfection techniques that they use for even vehicles that come onto their farms, and that their workers have to wear special boots and coveralls to avoid introducing *germs* into the flocks. I worry that people are going to think that this is the way they should be raising poultry because the guy that wrote the article is a vet and does poultry work for a living, making him an authoritative source. But what people will forget is that these commercial poultry companies keep their birds in constantly stressful conditions which contribute to a compromised immune system - things like too many birds in one space whether caged or not, lack of access to sunshine, lights for constant year round laying. So of course these birds will have a difficult time fighting off anything that they get exposed to, and with the further *biosecurity* precautions of trying to keep any outside germs from getting introduced to the flock, their immune systems are not going to be well developed to be ready to fight off any germ that does make it through to the flock. This kind of biosecurity is impractical for *regular* poultry keepers who do not/cannot keep their birds in a bubble that is kept as sterile as possible. And it is not a good sustainable practice. Poultry need access to sunlight, dirt, bugs, and germs just like people in order to build a healthy immune system and be able to perpetuate themselves through their offspring for the long haul.

Don't worry about Marek's. Give your birds good care and they will thrive and avoid many of the problems that I see with many backyard chicken keepers. MOst of the people that I see complaining that their birds are sick, are the people that are trying to love their chickens too much, by trying to treat them like a delicate flower instead of livestock, and they inadvertently cause their birds to have lowered immune systems and more prone to illness.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

No. Not on that point alone, but a collection of evidence is revealing. We cannot evaluate a bird based on a snap shot in time.

Kind of like the egg discussion. By a certain point in time, we know who to exclude. The bottom remains clear early and along the way. Then there is the middle. They take a little longer to identify. Now the top is in a category of their own. You have to take them all of the way to discern who is really who.

That is the way it is with all selection points. The bottom % is obvious. You kill those along the way. The middle takes a little more time to sort out, but as you are killing them, a new bottom becomes apparent. The process is on going, but there is the best birds that take some time to sort through.

There is always a bottom %, a middle group, and the "few elite". Variability works that way. A few at either extreme, and the majority in the middle.

You have enough information to cull the bottom half now. If you want to see how the curve looks for them, leave them. But they are at eating age, or close.

Something else to consider here. Are they molting into their new feathers? Do you see a lot of feathers laying around? If not, you will very soon. It seams that with these, you should be at that point. Once they begin this molt, the rate of growth will drop. For these, I would guess that they would be at or around 75% of their adult weight. The big cull and processing should be around this molt.

Now is time to really be eyeing your top 4 birds. That top third has your best birds. Rate of growth and weight is not the only selection point. You need to know the type, and start eyeing type. Start handling them. Feel the thighs etc. etc. Who would have the best carcass? Who has the most capacity? Think of what they might contribute to the Hen. Here is a lot to consider. Your top 4 contains the best bird, but which is it? Who is the most vigorous?

Of 12 birds, only keep a couple for breeding.

Very helpful. I realize I have time to go before picking the tops, and that this is just a point in time, but being somewhat new to this, was wondering if there were other (environmental/husbandry) factors in Tank, especially since up to this point he has been the fastest growing with excellent body conformation (on another thread, someone suggested that he might be getting bullied away from food, which I had not considered, so I may try to put out another feeding station. Heck, that could be going on with Puppy, too.). I've been handling them mindfully every week - best shape and density for meaty carcass are Bane, Apoc, and Tank. While heavy, Dozer is tall and slimmer - all leg/shank, it seems, less body that one would expect from the weight he's got - he almost has a gamebird-like stature and posture. (Do you ever see birds "grow in" to a meatier/more solid body conformation later? Or is the body shape at this age pretty much what you'll have going forward?). Mouse, while smaller, has a great solid body conformation (and the added benefit of being NN in phenotype, like Tank is)... but he is smaller and is less likely to make the top...

Funny - someone asked if I was sure Tank was a boy. I'm pretty sure - but now in my mind (with him not in front of me), I'm beginning to wonder (though that would be odd, I think). I'll have to take a more careful look at him again. But I really do think he's male.

I'll be culling the bottom two boys (Cypher and probably Neo) along with the New Hampshire boys in the next week or so. I'm keeping all the pullets (as we had talked about before, with regard to them having potentially other attributes besides pure weight) - I may selectively breed some of them preferentially, of course, though. Trinity in particular is very impressive (weight, body type, and NN phenotype). Once their coop is done (hopefully in a week or so), pullets will (finally) be separated from the boys.

Good point about the molt - I will check this.

- Ant Farm

 

[gjensen]

Chickens that are kept around turkeys can build up resistance because the turkey herpes virus is similar enough to Marek's that it offers the chickens some immunity to Marek's. Most people that I know do not worry about Marek's. If you have a bird that gets it and they recover, then great, if they die, then their immune system was obviously not able to fight it off. And generally when one bird is exposed to a disease, all the rest are exposed also and are building up immunity that you can't see. They can build up immunity even if none if the flock show signs of Marek's - you just have no idea what germs your chickens are exposed to and what kind of immunity your chickens are building up - which is why it is good to have them exposed to things instead of trying to keep them in a sterile bubble. The only people that I know that worry about Marek's are backyard pet chicken keepers because the hatcheries play up that they can vaccinate chicks for Marek's and is thus another source of income from people scared to death that their favorite chicken will get Marek's and die.

I consider Marek's to be kinda like chicken pox - kids have been getting chicken pox for eons, and yes, there are some that wind up with complications and become very sick or die. But in the grand scheme of things and the MILLIONS of kids that get chicken pox, the number of kids that actually become seriously ill or die from chicken pox is quite small. But the pharmaceutical companies only give the numbers that sound horrific to parents and the parents become convinced that their kids are going to be the tiny percentage of children that die from chicken pox if they don't get vaccinated, and thus the pharma company has another good income source.

I just read an article yesterday written by a commercial poultry vet that works for Sanderson Farms about biosecurity. It didn't impress me. The article discussed all the disinfection techniques that they use for even vehicles that come onto their farms, and that their workers have to wear special boots and coveralls to avoid introducing *germs* into the flocks. I worry that people are going to think that this is the way they should be raising poultry because the guy that wrote the article is a vet and does poultry work for a living, making him an authoritative source. But what people will forget is that these commercial poultry companies keep their birds in constantly stressful conditions which contribute to a compromised immune system - things like too many birds in one space whether caged or not, lack of access to sunshine, lights for constant year round laying. So of course these birds will have a difficult time fighting off anything that they get exposed to, and with the further *biosecurity* precautions of trying to keep any outside germs from getting introduced to the flock, their immune systems are not going to be well developed to be ready to fight off any germ that does make it through to the flock. This kind of biosecurity is impractical for *regular* poultry keepers who do not/cannot keep their birds in a bubble that is kept as sterile as possible. And it is not a good sustainable practice. Poultry need access to sunlight, dirt, bugs, and germs just like people in order to build a healthy immune system and be able to perpetuate themselves through their offspring for the long haul.

Don't worry about Marek's. Give your birds good care and they will thrive and avoid many of the problems that I see with many backyard chicken keepers. MOst of the people that I see complaining that their birds are sick, are the people that are trying to love their chickens too much, by trying to treat them like a delicate flower instead of livestock, and they inadvertently cause their birds to have lowered immune systems and more prone to illness.

There is more than one strain of Mareks. There is one that is related to what Turkeys carry, and is the part of a three way vaccine. Otherwise, it is useless against the other strains. It is a false sense of security to believe our Turkeys are protecting our chickens. It is one of those it may or it may not, but do not count on it.

To choose to or not to vaccinate is an individual decision. Once one has been hit hard by one of the more virulent strains (or one of the strains our birds are the most susceptible to), then discuss with them whether or not they should be concerned with it. Many good breeders have been hit very hard by it. Every year, some good breeders have to take drastic action.

It is very misleading to promote the idea that most of the people that have had problems with Mareks loved their chickens too much. How much someone "loves" their birds has no effect on viral transmission. The strain determines how detrimental it is or not.

I do not vaccinate, but I do reserve the right to change my mind. I never will, if I never have to. I have been fortunate, but I realize that I am not immune to having a problem with this disease. None of us are.

The largest factor determining whether or not you will ever experience a virulent strain is determined by the trade of other birds. If you bring in enough birds from other flocks, eventually, you will have a problem. No other factor has more impact. They can get it from wild birds, but the level of exposure is much lower.

I suspect that I have been fortunate, because I am reluctant to do trade in adult birds. I am not saying I will not, or I never have. Only that I do not make a practice of it.

You and I have a lot to lose in our own flocks. We should not think that they are immune to Mareks. They are not. They may show resistance to one strain or another, but they are not immune. Mareks is a moving target. It is ever evolving.

 

[gjensen]

Very helpful. I realize I have time to go before picking the tops, and that this is just a point in time, but being somewhat new to this, was wondering if there were other (environmental/husbandry) factors in Tank, especially since up to this point he has been the fastest growing with excellent body conformation (on another thread, someone suggested that he might be getting bullied away from food, which I had not considered, so I may try to put out another feeding station. Heck, that could be going on with Puppy, too.). I've been handling them mindfully every week - best shape and density for meaty carcass are Bane, Apoc, and Tank. While heavy, Dozer is tall and slimmer - all leg/shank, it seems, less body that one would expect from the weight he's got - he almost has a gamebird-like stature and posture. (Do you ever see birds "grow in" to a meatier/more solid body conformation later? Or is the body shape at this age pretty much what you'll have going forward?). Mouse, while smaller, has a great solid body conformation (and the added benefit of being NN in phenotype, like Tank is)... but he is smaller and is less likely to make the top...

Funny - someone asked if I was sure Tank was a boy. I'm pretty sure - but now in my mind (with him not in front of me), I'm beginning to wonder (though that would be odd, I think). I'll have to take a more careful look at him again. But I really do think he's male.

I'll be culling the bottom two boys (Cypher and probably Neo) along with the New Hampshire boys in the next week or so. I'm keeping all the pullets (as we had talked about before, with regard to them having potentially other attributes besides pure weight) - I may selectively breed some of them preferentially, of course, though. Trinity in particular is very impressive (weight, body type, and NN phenotype). Once their coop is done (hopefully in a week or so), pullets will (finally) be separated from the boys.

Good point about the molt - I will check this.

- Ant Farm

Yes, you have time to go before picking the tops. But you know now, what group to select them from. It is time to start evaluating them. In time, you will be able to pick them now, because you will know them well enough. I could pick them now.

You are thinking too much on the possibilities. There are always possibilities. You cannot avoid them. They have to do well in your setting. The numbers do not lie. Your perception will. It always does. We cannot base our decisions on perception unless that is all we have. If that is all we have, we do not have a lot to go on. Do make sure there is more than one feeder and water station, and with some space in between them. That is always a good idea. No matter if you have 4 or more. The less birds, the more attention a bird might get. The more birds, the more competition. I go with the commercial recommendations, and cut that in half or more. Never less than two though.

But, forget about one week. That point is useless.

And you need to decide at what age you are going to evaluate them. Chart them this year so you see it, but you will not want to do that year after year. You are going to want to weigh them at a particular point in time. Is that 12 wks, 14 wks, or 16wks?

You should not have to check on the molt. Suddenly you will see feathers all over the place, and the males growing in mature tail feathers. There is no mistaking when it begins to occur. Who knows, maybe your Tank has started that before the others.

It takes a lot of protein and energy to replace all of that feather. Their growth will slow when this occurs. Much of the energy and protein devoted to growth will be in replacing all of that feather. Afterwards, their growth is slowed substantially. That is why it is a goal to get a good carcass to harvest at this point and benefit from the most efficient gains. Any gain after is less efficient. The cockerels flesh also begins to get more stringy and tough.

Figure out when this molt is. That is your cull date, and forever after, you are trying to get a good and meaty (not grocery store meaty) carcass by then. That will press you to improve them. Your later roasters can be from your top birds that you grew out longer.

You have to be hard on the pullets for type and size etc. They are half of the contribution. They are important. Do not keep a small pullet with poor type. Maybe be more forgiving of them. Maybe not. It depends on what you have. You do not have a lot to choose from this year. Maybe figure on culling half of them for size and type. They are good eating to.

You should be shooting for two trios. Or a quad with two cockerels. Base the families on the sire, and alternate two males on four females. That will give you enough eggs from each sire to hatch. That will give you twenty eggs per week and for two weeks, that is 40. If you get 36 to hatch, that is enough to start two families. Two families will be a more simple start. You will not have any trouble coming up with a Naked Neck that you would be happy with when you need one. Then hatch one family in the spring, and one in the fall. Or one, one year, and the other, the next.

Do as you please. It is just offering ideas.

I really think that two families is the way to go for you. It is simpler, and easy to manage.