BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Beer can]

"The best way to save the old time poultry is to return them to our dining tables." Frank Reese Jr.

Frank might be right. Showing birds, has it improved the breeds? Has there been a great reduction of show birds, people showing these breeds? Yeah there has been, but the greater, worst thing that has happened is they are stuck in the 'breeder show bird' atmosphere.
Bring them back to production, lay good, good meat carcass, look at the history of the white faced black spanish, was a good hardy production bird, fell out of favor to the new breeds here at the time. Are the breeders today breeding them for what they once was, or for what they want them to look like?
I hear it all the time, you can't recreate a breed, why not? Well they hatched out thousands, for years. Then why can't you all hit their mark in decades since they did, 'breeding back to what they originally was'....breeding hundreds to get a few 'show quality'... Name one 'breeder' that isn't striving for perfection and sells chicks or eggs as 'show ready winner's'.....'Still improving on the breed' that was 'perfected a hundred yrs ago from mutts....

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

2x2 lumber is not sturdy enough. It tends to split easily when you put in staples and screws. Even the treated 2x2s tend to warp badly with the cycles of wet/dry. Not to mention it is easy for a canine type predator to get it into its mouth and tear things up. I would recommend a minimum of using 2x3 if not a 2x4 lumber.

4x4 is not very big for a henhouse. I have a few 4x4 ft houses with attached runs. I find that for our large fowl birds, 4 hens in one is pushing it. When you free range, you can put a lot more birds into a smaller space but when they are confined, they need more room to keep the pecking order problems down to a minimum. This becomes even more of an issue in bad weather, when they seek shelter inside and don't have enough room. You'll need to look at how many birds you're planning on having. With a 4x4 house, you may need more houses than you anticipate in order to work two flocks for serious goal oriented breeding.

Plastic netting overhead is not going to keep out predators except for maybe aerial predators. The plastic netting also does not give much stability to the run at the top and is subject to faster deterioration from UV light/weather exposure than wire. You really need welded wire at the minimum to keep out larger predators that can climb. The wire will also give stability at the top so that you don't have to use so many crosspieces/rafters, to give the run good stability.

We use a double layer system with welded wire and chicken wire for teenage and adult chickens - welded keeps the predators out and the chicken wire keeps the chicken parts in. For runs that will have younger birds/chicks in them, we use a combo of welded wire and hardware cloth. The chicken and hardware cloth is used to line the bottom walls of the run up 2-3 ft up from the ground. And of course hardware cloth on any windows/vents in the coop.

Thanks so much for the input! I will use 2x4s instead (easier to find straight ones than straight 2x2s anyway), and more secure overhead protection.

To clarify - this is sized for one of the following:

One spare rooster OR
One broody and her hatched chicks OR
One bird in quarantine OR
One rooster plus one (or maybe two, rarely) hens for breeding (time limited arrangement)

Never more birds than this. I have larger permanent coops as well as ranging for most all of my birds (part of the stimulus for this is the need to separate a couple of my spare cockerels). Also, it's warm here in South Texas (almost 80F today) and they generally are only in the hen house to sleep and to lay. Total space including run is 48 sq ft - for one or two (max three) birds. Henhouse alone is 16 sq ft for one or two birds for sleeping. I wanted to size the entire set up for 10+m sq ft per bird in the worst case scenario (not letting them roam outside of it, e.g. quarantine). So I believe the size is ok...

- Ant Farm

 

[bnjrob]

Quote:
I forgot to mention about your size and that you are setting yourself up for them to be turned over in a strong wind. With a long skinny pen, you increase the risk of it blowing over. If it's going to be 8 feet tall, you're about guaranteeing that the sucker is going to be overturned in the wind. I have pens that are almost exactly the dimensions that you want to use. They take a lot of buffeting by the wind and I've had the roof pulled partly off in a storm. Have not had them turn over, but they are VERY heavy and can't be moved without being towed. If you're wanting to make these light enough to be modular, I think you're asking for trouble to make them this size and be lightweight too. I've had a 4x10 foot open air run turned over in the wind - and you're wanting to put a 4 walled coop on yours which is going to catch even more wind.

You don't need the run to be 8 feet tall. Unless you're over 6 ft tall, 6 ft is high enough. If you want a 4 walled coop, then 2 ft underneath the coop is plenty of room, that's where my similar houses sit and I have large cocks that get under there just fine.

We've found open air A-frames to be a much better option and that that is what we started building a couple of years ago. With the wide base, even our small a-frames that we use for single males, occasionally peaceful double males, and sometimes a few hens, they have stayed put in high winds even though they are light enough for me to move them around. We house single males in 4x8x3 ft a-frames, 2 cocks fit comfortably in a 4x10x3 footer. I've kept a couple of hens in the 8 footers without a problem.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I forgot to mention about your size and that you are setting yourself up for them to be turned over in a strong wind. With a long skinny pen, you increase the risk of it blowing over. If it's going to be 8 feet tall, you're about guaranteeing that the sucker is going to be overturned in the wind. I have pens that are almost exactly the dimensions that you want to use. They take a lot of buffeting by the wind and I've had the roof pulled partly off in a storm. Have not had them turn over, but they are VERY heavy and can't be moved without being towed. If you're wanting to make these light enough to be modular, I think you're asking for trouble to make them this size and be lightweight too. I've had a 4x10 foot open air run turned over in the wind - and you're wanting to put a 4 walled coop on yours which is going to catch even more wind.

You don't need the run to be 8 feet tall. Unless you're over 6 ft tall, 6 ft is high enough. If you want a 4 walled coop, then 2 ft underneath the coop is plenty of room, that's where my similar houses sit and I have large cocks that get under there just fine.

We've found open air A-frames to be a much better option and that that is what we started building a couple of years ago. With the wide base, even our small a-frames that we use for single males, occasionally peaceful double males, and sometimes a few hens, they have stayed put in high winds even though they are light enough for me to move them around. We house single males in 4x8x3 ft a-frames, 2 cocks fit comfortably in a 4x10x3 footer. I've kept a couple of hens in the 8 footers without a problem.

This is a REALLY good point (wind being a big problem here). Can you make your A-Frames modular/ able to be disassembled? (I need to wrap my head around how to build these, at least the enclosed part).

When you say 4x8x3, do you mean 4x8 on the ground, and 3 ft tall at the apex? How large is the enclosed "henhouse" part of them?

- Ant Farm

Edit to add: I'm so glad I asked for input!!!!

 

[hellbender]

I have mixed feelings about Heritage breeds.

They were created for a time and place. Neither of which I live in. I see them as a great jumping off point, but I am more interested in selecting birds to fit my own needs and priorities. I do not wish to breed mongrels but I am more than willing cross breed then to run off of hybrid vigor for a while. We could not have the diversity in chickens breeds ( or any animal breed) that we have today if not for cross breeding and then line or inbreeding.

My hope is to have two or more lines of unrelated birds that follow that formula so I can weave them in and out for decades to come. I know they will lack consistency in some areas but so long as the meet my core criteria... I am good with that.

I mean no disrespect to those who enjoy working to preserve heritage breeds. We al have different goals and desires.

Everyone, folks who enjoy backyard mutt birds to those who will breed nothing but birds that have pedigrees going back to the Mayflower. While the opinions of all are welcome here, I hasten to ask those who may have missed it....to check the name of this thread.

BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

 

[dfr1973]

"The best way to save the old time poultry is to return them to our dining tables." Frank Reese Jr.

Frank might be right. Showing birds, has it improved the breeds? Has there been a great reduction of show birds, people showing these breeds? Yeah there has been, but the greater, worst thing that has happened is they are stuck in the 'breeder show bird' atmosphere.
Bring them back to production, lay good, good meat carcass, look at the history of the white faced black spanish, was a good hardy production bird, fell out of favor to the new breeds here at the time. Are the breeders today breeding them for what they once was, or for what they want them to look like?
I hear it all the time, you can't recreate a breed, why not? Well they hatched out thousands, for years. Then why can't you all hit their mark in decades since they did, 'breeding back to what they originally was'....breeding hundreds to get a few 'show quality'... Name one 'breeder' that isn't striving for perfection and sells chicks or eggs as 'show ready winner's'.....'Still improving on the breed' that was 'perfected a hundred yrs ago from mutts....

Everyone, folks who enjoy backyard mutt birds to those who will breed nothing but birds that have pedigrees going back to the Mayflower. While the opinions of all are welcome here, I hasten to ask those who may have missed it....to check the name of this thread.

BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

I am of the opinion that the SOP breeders' birds ought to produce like the breed's reputation suggests. IMO, that is a part of the breed description and characteristics. Not all show/SoP breeders keep this in mind, though, and it becomes (*bleep!*) difficult to find one who bothers with production qualities, to the extent I obtained hatchery stock to cross with breeder stock to get what I want. My goal is not so much showing, but to get a bird that looks like it should while doing as it should. That is the core of my Gold-Laced Wyandotte project.

As for my Silkiebator project ... it would likely horrify the breeders not just because how I want them to look (size-wise) but the second production goal of meat. I do have to admit to wondering how good a chick nanny a Silkiebator capon would be.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I am of the opinion that the SOP breeders' birds ought to produce like the breed's reputation suggests. IMO, that is a part of the breed description and characteristics. Not all show/SoP breeders keep this in mind, though, and it becomes (*bleep!*) difficult to find one who bothers with production qualities, to the extent I obtained hatchery stock to cross with breeder stock to get what I want. My goal is not so much showing, but to get a bird that looks like it should while doing as it should. That is the core of my Gold-Laced Wyandotte project.

As for my Silkiebator project ... it would likely horrify the breeders not just because how I want them to look (size-wise) but the second production goal of meat. I do have to admit to wondering how good a chick nanny a Silkiebator capon would be.

I agree. And I love what you're doing with the Silkies - it's what I would do if I had the time and room for more birds. I will just have to enjoy your project vicariously - please keep us updated!

- Ant Farm

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Just a thought, if there weren't breeders who breed for show most of the less productive (probably most of, actually) would have been exctinct a long time ago. I thank the show bird breeders and the hatcheries for keeping many breeds alive. They have given us the opportunity to mess around with them and now we all at least have the chance to try to improve their production abilities, but I don't think they ever will produce like today's modern hybrids.
I really do think one are has been overlooked and anthNDacula has touched upon it- breeding for disease resistance. Which of course goes hand in hand with production ability.

 

[dfr1973]

Just a thought, if there weren't breeders who breed for show most of the less productive (probably most of, actually) would have been exctinct a long time ago. I thank the show bird breeders and the hatcheries for keeping many breeds alive. They have given us the opportunity to mess around with them and now we all at least have the chance to try to improve their production abilities, but I don't think they ever will produce like today's modern hybrids.
I really do think one are has been overlooked and anthNDacula has touched upon it- breeding for disease resistance. Which of course goes hand in hand with production ability.

Oh, no argument there! I just consider breeding for style without the substance to be a job only half-done. Half-done is better than not done at all. Again, that is my personal OPINION, so that and two dollars (US) will get you a cup of coffee at the local mom-n-pop diner in town.

Disease resistance ... now there is an interesting topic. Right now, my idea of "biosecurity" is keeping the bears away from my livestock, and I tend to medicate wet fowl pox (a yearly event, it appears) to prevent secondary bacterial infection, but other than that I just wait out to see who thrives here versus who doesn't. I think the 1/3 initial loss (5 out of 15) on the splash Silkies had something to do with that. For someone who is primarily breeding for own needs first, simply choosing the most vigorous of the batches looks like the intuitive way to do that. I am also applying that idea to my garden on species I can save my own seed.

 

[AnthNDacula]

Production is the overarching theme of this thread and that is important to be reminded of. We do digress a lot but then this is a very active and interesting thread whereas many threads are... pardon me saying so... total duds. I even like it when people get preachy and sometimes overbearing

Guess I'm just a little twisted that way. But since we are on the topic, what does "production" mean to everyone? In my situation I'm looking for historic birds that set dependably, make a good stewing hen and a magnificent capon. Carcass quality and flavor are of utmost importance. They should also produce a reasonable number of largish eggs. I want to keep the SOP in mind but will completely ignore an off color or incorrect comb in lieu of a good looking and delicious bird on the table. But what does "production" mean to you?