BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[RedRidge]

Like BGMatt, I don't think most of us can come up with better feed than a professionally formulated ration.  My problem with what i can get is that its full of soy, which I think is a poor source of protein for a number of reasons.  

For simplicity sake, I'm switching to flock raiser.  I've got geese and multiple feeds has become a hassle.  My geese like my fermented grain mix.  I've switched over to barley, oats and wheat with some flax added on top.  The chicks struggle with the whole grains so I run it thru the mill for them right now.  I'm doing too much.  Gotta figure out a simpler way.  Free choice calcium source, grit, fermented grain at night and free choice flock raiser.  The things like alfalfa I normally add in the winter months when they can't get out as much.  When I start doing breeding pens, I'll have to change a couple things.  I'm on a quest to find a good breeder ration.  I can just keep their food in their building.  Grrr....KISS otherwise when someone other than me takes care of things it will get messed up.  

Jennifer

I refuse to feed soy. I balance rations for all kinds of livestock. The commercial feeds just have too much extra garbage that is used to make the numbers look good. Take soy, for example... Soy is used in most commercial feeds as a primary source of protein. Poultry need animal protein. They are not vegetarians. And those feeds that contain fish meal do not contain near enough animal protein, that's why they are offset with soy.
Different areas have access to certain grains and ingredients and balanced rations can be developed from those ingredients if you do your research and know what is required of that type of livestock. There ate also many (some free) reason balancing software Priam out there.
My poultry ration is nothing more than corn, peas and oats (a little what every once in a while but not too much). After fermenting I add nutribalancer... Then fish meal for chicks and limestone and bsf for adults. If it's is winter and they aren't free ranging then alfalfa meal and/or keep us also added.
The correct percentage of each ingredient gives you the proper balance of all needed nutrients. It doesn't take a phd it simply takes research.

 

[southernmomma]

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying one way or the other is right, just saying that you can't really have both extreme laying and great meat. I do breed to the Standard but I want my birds to be as productive as possible and still meet it. I do not find fault with anyone who breeds for production only. Sorry if it came across that way.

One thing I am very interested in is how some of you select breeders for meat qualities. I know how I do it but feel like I could do better in that regard, especially in increasing size. Let me outline what I do so I can get feedback and hopefully some tips.

How I select for meat: Given that rate of growth is very important since as the bird matures of course meat becomes tougher, my ideal butcher time frame is no later than 24 weeks. Beginning at 6-8 weeks (I can usually tell gender at this time or before), birds are separated by gender and I make my first cull, I take the smallest 25% (favoring physical size, not necessarily weight at this point, I'll switch this up around 16-20 weeks) and get rid of them, I mark the largest 10%. I repeat that every 3-4 weeks. At 24 weeks I again mark the top 105 and that combined with my other culling criteria gives me the birds to select my breeders from when I do final selections much later down the road. Over the years I have found a strong correlation between shank diameter and overall top size so I use that as a tie breaker. "Strong" heads also seem to be correlated.

And how is this going for you Matt? I think I recall seeing you'd taken a break from breeding and then come back to it~ is this the second or third season with your birds? What are the weights on your first and second cull? (I'm guessing you've maybe only had a first cull this year) Are you working towards earlier maturity as well as fleshing out?
Just curious

I took a gander at Langshans over the weekend and the whites knocked me out. Not big on the blues or splash but wow, those whites with that sweepy neck and tail are something else.

M

 

[southernmomma]

I refuse to feed soy. I balance rations for all kinds of livestock. The commercial feeds just have too much extra garbage that is used to make the numbers look good. Take soy, for example... Soy is used in most commercial feeds as a primary source of protein. Poultry need animal protein. They are not vegetarians. And those feeds that contain fish meal do not contain near enough animal protein, that's why they are offset with soy.
Different areas have access to certain grains and ingredients and balanced rations can be developed from those ingredients if you do your research and know what is required of that type of livestock. There ate also many (some free) reason balancing software Priam out there.
My poultry ration is nothing more than corn, peas and oats (a little what every once in a while but not too much). After fermenting I add nutribalancer... Then fish meal for chicks and limestone and bsf for adults. If it's is winter and they aren't free ranging then alfalfa meal and/or keep us also added.
The correct percentage of each ingredient gives you the proper balance of all needed nutrients. It doesn't take a phd it simply takes research.

This is really great. Simple. Although sometimes simple is not easy but I would think that for the sake of a healthy, productive flock and a "clean" end product it's worth a few extra steps/minutes.

Curious~ do you calculate the limestone and BSF together for total calcium intake? or is the amount in BSF negligible enough to simply use it as protein?

M

 

[southernmomma]

Karen-- I'm stunned-- you wont eat a wonderful sussex roaster but you will eat the rabbit--- We need to live closer! I can process a chicken, but my meat rabbit is still here!!

@3riverschick What do you do with your culls? Sell them as pets?

M

 

[RedRidge]

I refuse to feed soy. I balance rations for all kinds of livestock. The commercial feeds just have too much extra garbage that is used to make the numbers look good. Take soy, for example... Soy is used in most commercial feeds as a primary source of protein. Poultry need animal protein. They are not vegetarians. And those feeds that contain fish meal do not contain near enough animal protein, that's why they are offset with soy.

Different areas have access to certain grains and ingredients and balanced rations can be developed from those ingredients if you do your research and know what is required of that type of livestock. There ate also many (some free) reason balancing software Priam out there.
My poultry ration is nothing more than corn, peas and oats (a little what every once in a while but not too much). After fermenting I add nutribalancer... Then fish meal for chicks and limestone and bsf for adults. If it's is winter and they aren't free ranging then alfalfa meal and/or keep us also added.

The correct percentage of each ingredient gives you the proper balance of all needed nutrients. It doesn't take a phd it simply takes research.

This is really great.  Simple.  Although sometimes simple is not easy but I would think that for the sake of a healthy, productive flock and a "clean" end product it's worth a few extra steps/minutes.

Curious~ do you calculate the limestone and BSF together for total calcium intake? or is the amount in BSF negligible enough to simply use it as protein?
  
M

For calcium it depends on the group and time of year. I do not feed BSF in the summer. I raise them and freeze them. So, most management groups are free ranging at that time and it is easier to simply add limestone.
In the winter when I feed bsf I actually weigh the bsf for each group and do not add limestone but offer the Oyster shell. They don't each much os, but do consume a little.
I know how many bsf per lb, so I use weights for all my feed... It is more accurate than measuring. So in the winter if group is getting 8 lbs of feed grains I have a chart on the wall of the feed room to tell me they get 6 lbs of ff grains, .5 of bsf, and 1.5 of "premix" (this is nutribalancer, alfalfa meal). These numbers are examples and not accurate. .. But you get the idea. I keep two different premixed in the assembly line... a different one for chicks. I replace whatever fermented grains I take out daily and weigh... tare the scale and add the remaining ingredients. It's takes less than 2 minutes. I use a hammer mill to grind my grains. I grind once a week and put the dry grains for the week in an old stainless steel dairy sink I keep in my feed room. It's a system that works for me. I try to work smarter and not harder the older I get. Grinding once a week takes about 30 minutes. Daily feeding of Poultry varies. .. takes longer when I have chicks but only about 10 minutes for all pens in the winter. I water everyone via gravity with poultry nipples and stock tank deicers so water is a no brained here. My feed room rarely gets below freezing so I'm able to ferment year round, but in the winter of its real cold I ferment twice as many 5 gallon buckets and rotate since fermenting takes longer in cold weather. As an aside. .. I do not cover my ff buckets. If I have some gnats is just more protein. ;-) and I don't have to worry about house flies because I have BSF. I strong BSF colony eliminates house/barn flies.

 

[southernmomma]

For calcium it depends on the group and time of year. I do not feed BSF in the summer. I raise them and freeze them. So, most management groups are free ranging at that time and it is easier to simply add limestone.
In the winter when I feed bsf I actually weigh the bsf for each group and do not add limestone but offer the Oyster shell. They don't each much os, but do consume a little.
I know how many bsf per lb, so I use weights for all my feed... It is more accurate than measuring. So in the winter if group is getting 8 lbs of feed grains I have a chart on the wall of the feed room to tell me they get 6 lbs of ff grains, .5 of bsf, and 1.5 of "premix" (this is nutribalancer, alfalfa meal). These numbers are examples and not accurate. .. But you get the idea. I keep two different premixed in the assembly line... a different one for chicks. I replace whatever fermented grains I take out daily and weigh... tare the scale and add the remaining ingredients. It's takes less than 2 minutes. I use a hammer mill to grind my grains. I grind once a week and put the dry grains for the week in an old stainless steel dairy sink I keep in my feed room. It's a system that works for me. I try to work smarter and not harder the older I get. Grinding once a week takes about 30 minutes. Daily feeding of Poultry varies. .. takes longer when I have chicks but only about 10 minutes for all pens in the winter. I water everyone via gravity with poultry nipples and stock tank deicers so water is a no brained here. My feed room rarely gets below freezing so I'm able to ferment year round, but in the winter of its real cold I ferment twice as many 5 gallon buckets and rotate since fermenting takes longer in cold weather. As an aside. .. I do not cover my ff buckets. If I have some gnats is just more protein. ;-) and I don't have to worry about house flies because I have BSF. I strong BSF colony eliminates house/barn flies.

Is there a central site or book or a thread on this forum that list nutritional values of popular poultry foodstuffs? or am I better off using nutritiondata.com or something like that.....I LOVE this kind of dialogue. I've spent years raw feeding cats, dogs and ferrets (no longer have ferrets. fun but a PITA to keep) and enjoy the vitality and recovery I've seen with rescue animals when fed a species appropriate diet. I'd like to apply my philosophy to chickens.....especially since I intend to consume the fruits of my labor.

BSF~ so your colony is in the barn? I'm having trouble picturing how the chx are kept from harvesting the larvae as they drop out....is it in a protected area?

thanks,
M

Nevermind...I just googled biopod. I get it

 

[3riverschick]

@3riverschick What do you do with your culls? Sell them as pets?

M

I kill them. I give a trio or quad breeding to a 4-H each year.

 

[chickadoodles]

Please let us know what your results are. I am VERY curious to see the differences, if any. I did feed wet food this past winter in the AM for a warm meal, just enough that they ate it all at once. But it's only a small flock and had to wash the feeder every day for them. Not sure about fermented feed. I have been reading the thread on it, and haven't read anything about people washing the feeders yet.

Got to page 35, yet nothing on washing them so no idea if there is a difference in wet to fermented, when washing perhaps? or maybe it is taken as understood as part of the process? I wouldn't want to leave it unwashed, personally.

Here are some auto feeders I saw on fb this morning posted by: https://www.facebook.com/louisescountrycloset?fref=photo
(*My feeder has a straight bottom with a small section cut out to let the feed pour out into the bowl. I will get a pic in a bit and post it.)

 

[3riverschick]

~~Originally Posted by Arielle , Karen-- I'm stunned-- you wont eat a
wonderful sussex roaster but you will eat the rabbit--- We need to live closer!
I can process a chicken, but my meat rabbit is still here!!
=====
Oh well we are all stunned by something or other,

. I am stunned people actually raise flies.Oh

Get out the fly swatter!

I tried to learn how to process a chicken once. traded Marans stud cock to a farmer
lady for the lesson But she was so quick I didn't really "get it".

And she kept telling me to be careful
because if I didn't get the guts out right, I would pollute the flesh with ecoli and we would all get sick.

I decided the threat wasn't worth it.

But the cock was sure happy with his new flock!

Hubby Bob knows about raising rabbits.

His brother raised Angoras and his Uncle Ronny raised
Flemish Giants. So he will be doing the processing.

 

[southernmomma]

I kill them. I give a trio or quad breeding to a 4-H each year.

I'm confused......you kill them but don't/won't eat them? I swear that's what Arielle wrote~ am I misinterpreting?
lol, it doesn't really matter, I'm just curious is all
Quote:

M