BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[BGMatt]

THe reason I brought up Mr Reese's list is that he has NH that are bred for meat first, and as I remember his description of his birds, didn't claim SOP breeding, in fact, made a pont of clarifying the opposite, that they were not sop. TO me I see two things: he is honest, and he breeds for what a poultry bird was intended: meat. Whe I talked to Mr Rhodes I was struck by his honesty-- did not brag about his birds but was very matter of fact.

Sorry I was talking about the old Reese lines from the 20's, not Frank Reese and Good Shepard, sorry for confusion.

 

[hellbender]

INFORMATION, PLEASE? A young couple near me can not be convinced that NN's are truly excellent birds for all weather conditions. I won't give or sell them birds anyhow but they are determined to find out something about Buckeyes. They don't have a pc right now and I'm not certain it would help them much. I've searched what seems to be available and get conflicting tales, with regard to their heritage. I doubt the ACTUAL truth is known about any breed but there just seems to be a shortage of info. for the Buckeye.

I would appreciate if a respected breeder or judge could give me the 'facts' and I will relay to them.



Thanks in advance.

I certainly am not a 'snob' so that is not the reason I wouldn't provide them a few birds, even if they were crazy about my breed. They are good 'kids' with three little snot-noses of their own and their idea of feeding chicken is to fling out a bit of cracked corn at them once a day. That actually might work pretty well around here for the next 5 or 6 months but if I can help them find the breed they are most interested in, I will also try to help them learn how to properly feed chickens. (No...Not MY Pain-In-The-Butt system).

Re-posted from another thread that I posted on first with no help so far.

 

[BGMatt]

INFORMATION, PLEASE? A young couple near me can not be convinced that NN's are truly excellent birds for all weather conditions. I won't give or sell them birds anyhow but they are determined to find out something about Buckeyes. They don't have a pc right now and I'm not certain it would help them much. I've searched what seems to be available and get conflicting tales, with regard to their heritage. I doubt the ACTUAL truth is known about any breed but there just seems to be a shortage of info. for the Buckeye.

I would appreciate if a respected breeder or judge could give me the 'facts' and I will relay to them.



Thanks in advance.

I certainly am not a 'snob' so that is not the reason I wouldn't provide them a few birds, even if they were crazy about my breed. They are good 'kids' with three little snot-noses of their own and their idea of feeding chicken is to fling out a bit of cracked corn at them once a day. That actually might work pretty well around here for the next 5 or 6 months but if I can help them find the breed they are most interested in, I will also try to help them learn how to properly feed chickens. (No...Not MY Pain-In-The-Butt system).

Re-posted from another thread that I posted on first with no help so far.

A link to an article that has been scanned, but was written by the breed originator, Nettie Metcalf. Which is about as close to truth as you can get in the breed, because there's not much to dispute about her creating them.

http://www.americanbuckeyepoultryclub.com/BuckeyeHistory.html


Basics I'm sure you already know most of, but one of my best friends raised them with his son for quite a few years so I can comment on them a little. They're a good dual purpose fowl. Put out a better carcass than the Rhode Island Red, as they're a little more compact and meaty. Their line went broody at the end of the season and made good mothers. They're often romanticized on-line, truth of the matter is they're a solid dual purpose bird with production traits similar to a wyandotte, rock or red and are their contemporaries. Brown egg layers. Yellow skin. Pea Comb and minimal wattles compared to the other breeds which makes them "cold hardy". The ALBC recreated the breed following the original recipe for the most part.

Definitely gotta teach them something about feeding. An image that may help:

 

[mklorber]

Wow...but look at that leg color.

 

[hellbender]

A link to an article that has been scanned, but was written by the breed originator, Nettie Metcalf. Which is about as close to truth as you can get in the breed, because there's not much to dispute about her creating them.

http://www.americanbuckeyepoultryclub.com/BuckeyeHistory.html


Basics I'm sure you already know most of, but one of my best friends raised them with his son for quite a few years so I can comment on them a little. They're a good dual purpose fowl. Put out a better carcass than the Rhode Island Red, as they're a little more compact and meaty. Their line went broody at the end of the season and made good mothers. They're often romanticized on-line, truth of the matter is they're a solid dual purpose bird with production traits similar to a wyandotte, rock or red and are their contemporaries. Brown egg layers. Yellow skin. Pea Comb and minimal wattles compared to the other breeds which makes them "cold hardy". The ALBC recreated the breed following the original recipe for the most part.

Definitely gotta teach them something about feeding. An image that may help:

Thank you, Sir!!!


Mercifully I got my cataract removed! That was a wonderful read but required a bit of squinting, cataract or not.

All things considered, this might be the breed for these young folks. They might be a forgiving bunch of birds.

From what I gather, these are very good meat birds (thanks in great part to the Cornish infusion) and they lay well enough medium sized eggs to keep the family happy and the meat equation should not disappoint either!

Thanks again Matt!

RON

EDIT: I think...Oh...Everyone should read the link put up by Matt...It's a riot but extremely informative.

 

[gjensen]

I routinely tested hay for protein and TDN for my Nubian herd. We had good browse on my farm, and the goats relished it. I took samples one day of what the herd was munching on.Amazing that all those weeds, bushes, brambles, etc., were just as high in protein and TDN, as my very expensive, New Mexico, irrigation grown Alfalfa.

I was surprised to find similar with many of the native broad leaf weeds that the birds prefer over the coarser grasses. I started liming and tilling the "turf" to bring these weeds seeds to the surface, and find that the birds prefer these patches. Not to mention that the patches harbor more insects. I have come to the conclusion that most environments have what is needed. I have also found that every environment is short on something.

It was interesting to notice that the largest shortcoming was not protein under good growing conditions, but energy, Much of the weed seeds are not as high in energy (or in the qty) as the common grain seeds we feed. What these birds need more than anything is energy.

We spend so much time discussing protein, amino acid profiles etc. All of these things are important, of course. Just not in the same qty.

With Hearts rate in the vicinity of 250, and very high respiration rates, they need a lot of energy just to maintain.

So any reader does not think that their environment can meet all of their bird's needs, there is always a deficiency (s), and the birds quickly deplete their environment of insects and weed seeds. Many do not make it over 160' from the coop. Their is also a lot more body maintenance with our large fowl compared to a jungle fowls. Then the production characteristics are much greater. No input means no output. Surviving is different than thriving. Also, historically, many strains could tolerate certain deficiencies than others. Our birds are a little more "nutritionally needy", just by selection or lack of.

 

[gjensen]

Yes, I remember that last year, however one can't get caught up in line names, it's a trend I see all the time and it just doesn't make sense. Once the original person is no longer directly making the decisions for the birds it's not REALLY their line anymore. One can ruin a line or improve a line very quickly, either way let that person take the credit or blame they deserve. Something marketed as a Reese line, or a Grove Hill line bird today is nothing more than advertising and may or may not live up to it's original billing.



Absolutely. It's why so many of the breeds have standards that read so closely to one another with really fairly minor differences. Every dual purpose fowl has a standard that uses lots of words like "wide", "broad", "full". Almost every egg laying breed uses the words "long" and "deep". Heck, I'm pretty sure that if you bred a bird solely for dual purpose production of eggs and meat, standard or not, you would eventually reach a bird that in silhouette anyway closely resembled a Plymouth Rock, or a New Hampshire or a Sussex, or etc. If you bred birds for egg production you'd likely end up with something that looks an awful lot like (again in silhouette) a Leghorn, or Campine, or Andalusian, etc, etc.

Edit: The first 40 or so pages of the Standard are fantastic because it explains structure, has diagrams etc. It's well worth the purchase.

Some lines would take a very long time to get them to be productive egg layers again. Trust me. There are some cases where you are almost are starting over. If you do not use it, you lose it, and once it is gone . . . it is hard to get back. Concerning any set of traits. There has to be some degree of variability to choose from. Once the problems are "fixed", it is start over or outcross for variability. You have to really love something to irrationally devote to a dead end.

It is really important to know what we want, and know what is worth starting with or not.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: THanks for clearing that up. lol

 

[Arielle]

Quote: THank you George for stating this. I spent a long time, couple years reading the heritage thread and trying to understand a few things-- and was baffled by the number of breeders that painted themselves into the corner production wise. Yet the word on the street was-- breed them, it is in there. I think sometimes it is not in there, it has been bred out.

Better to start with a line that is well rounded in production and SOP.I used to pick my rams from the middle of the class placings because twins never win over a single, and twinning was a trait that was important to me.

WHen I look for breeding stock, I ask a lot of questions. IF the person doesn't want to answer them, I move on. For those that do answer my questions I listen as much for what they don't say as what they do say.

I remember some years ago looking to breed a decent mare for the first time. I had a list of thoughtout questions, and at that time there was only a phone or mail. So as I had a fair number of questions, I mailed the letter to some 20 stallion owners. THe majority never answered my questions but sent a fancy brochure or copy of an ad. Only a few sent a letter back trying to answer my questions. THAT narrowed he field right quick. THe stallion chosen was sold right after the breeding to a big farm, and I have bred my mares many times to the stallions at that farm as they were as helpful as the original owner. Funny how it worked out over the years

My point is ask questions and choose wisely.

 

[armorfirelady]

Hellbenders that's great news about the video. I for one look forward to watching it