BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Turk Raphael]

@Turk Raphael
Are you stuck on a purebred? Are you stuck on a "new" dog? I am/have been heavily involved in rescue so I hate to let an opportunity pass...........consider a breed rescue or shelter. More often than not you will find what will suit your purpose with the added bonus of saving a life. You will find purebred and mixes at a shelter but a breed rescue will have dogs that are well vetted for temperament and in good health. Take a chicken with you in a cat carrier and challenge the dog with it to test for prey drive (the chicken in the carrier obvs).

We currently have 2 rescues. One I chose and the other we "found". My chosen dog is a mix of breeds that are historically family dogs but have recently been misused....and she bares the marks of a sad history but I will say this~ although she has a very high prey drive and will dispatch any small animal that wanders on to the land, she's so incredibly devoted to us she would defend us and anything else that I might "give" to her. There will be a perimeter fence for good reason but I plan to "give" her everything inside of that fence. And she will defend it. I couldn't ask for a better soldier.

Food for thought I hope~ the right dog for the job is what you're comfortable with but might be found at the pound for $50.
I wish you luck....and I will step down from my soapbox

M

I do understand the rescue option and if we were looking for a pet or house dog, there would be no other option but Rescue/Pound but I do want a puppy, in which a lot of effort will be invested and my thinking is that getting a breed or even a hybrid with the genetic material known to be working flock guardians will give me a better chance of success. Whatever we eventually get, the pup will be living in the chicken coop with the ONLY exceptions of vet care and VERY basic OB training. The training will be done on the farm by my partner, who has had experience in training/handling dogs during his Air force days. Oh...to our good luck for a change....we have made contact with a horse vet who lives on the property the 'BIG HORSE FOLKS' that he works for. He's willing to come by the farm and take care of all basic care, including worming, shots, etc.

Other good luck, my sister showed Pembroke Corgies before circumstances put an end to that and all the crates and large X-pens are stored in a shed. Some of them need a good wire brushing, primer and a good coat of industrial enamel to make them good as new. Most of that stuff will be invaluable, sooner or later!

ETS...We stopped in a rest/bar called Brick Alley Pub today where some 'horse' employees frequent. There was a very nice young lady there having lunch and she had two Heelers in her truck...one red the other blue. Beautiful dogs but they were very scary to me. They acted crazy-dangerous, were NOT tied or confined in any way but they never made even the slightest effort to leave that truck bed! They were parked in a shaded area.

after a discussion, the lady offered us a pup from the cross of the two dogs...the red female is due within two weeks. I don't know why the dog's tails were docked but it doesn't matter to me since most of the ones I see are docked. Anyhow, she offered us our pick for $100 dollars. We all went to her truck and while they let us pet them, neither dog was thrilled, they just barely tolerated us. She further told us that there are all kinds of chickens running around the horse farm where she worked and the dogs pay them no mind but won't tolerate any varmints around, day or night. These dogs are on the large side for the breed. The male is close to 75 pounds with a very broad neck and chest. He is registered and was purchased from The Blizzard Cattle Ranch in Oklahoma for a bunch of money, according to this gal, and I believe her. He really stood out! The female is not registered but is clearly purebred. So far...the best option for the money and puppies will be on the ground at the perfect time for us. Can't hardly go to dinner for ess than $100 bucks!!! And...they re only about 15 miles from our place.

Ok...this prospective pup has moved to the top of the list...especially after I checked the website of the male's breeder...Correction...The name is Buzzard's Australian Cattle dogs...

 

[gjensen]

So...a breeding question....I'm new to this thread & haven't had time to read through that back posts, so maybe this has been covered...

I'm breeding olive-eggers, using Marans and Ameraucanas. I also have a few brown-egg crosses and some Leghorns to keep production going for my egg customers.

There is a certain conformation I'm starting to cull for, after breeding a few years of crosses with a few different roos. I'm getting ready to set up for trap nesting, hopefully with a batch of pullets almost ready to lay. The problem is that I work full time, so being able to trap nest for production of an individual hen will be hard. So far I've only done so to see which hen is laying which egg.

It's way easier for me to evaluate conformation, and get rid of the 'ugly' birds, but that means I might end up with pretty birds that lay like crap. Should I hold off on culling until I can do more trap nesting for production? Or cull away, and work on egg production next?

How hard is it to bring laying up to speed from a general barnyard flock?

How fast depends on where they are and how much variability there is within the flock.

Trap nests are not practical unless you have all day to check them. You can cook a good bird in a trap nest during the summer.

Breeding for type is keeping with the breed and promotes utility. An obsession with feather is where you can go the wrong way. I think the feather matters, but not by sacrificing better birds.

Incorporate a seasonal system that evaluates the birds performance. You an identify who comes into lay first. Two weeks difference can mean 8-10 extra eggs in the pullet year. Check the pelvic spread a few times before fall, and identify layers that go out of lay for lengths of time. When it coms time to molt, identify who molts the latest. This can mean an extra week or two of eggs during the pullet year. Then identify who molts fastest. This means a few more winter eggs. Finally identify who comes back into lay first late winter. Once they have come back on line, check pelvic spread again and select for type.

This gives you enough information over the pullet year to identify who is your most productive birds. This is not directions on how to do it, but to give you an idea of the process. The ALBC ha good article on assessing layers. I would only add monitoring when they come into lay, when they molt, how long it takes them to molt, and when they come into lay late winter.

If you monitor the flock and track individuals over the entire pullet year, you can choose who is best to breed for the replacement flock. If you hold on to your best birds, and track the generation, you may get an idea who is throwing the best birds. You can breed them an additional season, and you will be selecting for longevity also.

When you identify superior individuals that produce superior individuals, it could be wise to breed them until they quit laying or die.

Show a preference to sons of producing females, and track the results of the sires. They have more influence.

 

[Arielle]

Can you trap for short periods of time-- like vaca week, or on weekends? THe longer the period of time the better of course.

I would not cull for type and then cull for egg production consecutively. . THey are both important.

I have BCM and AM/EE and so I am wondering if you have been able to extend the laying season with your stock?

 

[ronott1]

So...a breeding question....I'm new to this thread & haven't had time to read through that back posts, so maybe this has been covered...

I'm breeding olive-eggers, using Marans and Ameraucanas. I also have a few brown-egg crosses and some Leghorns to keep production going for my egg customers.

There is a certain conformation I'm starting to cull for, after breeding a few years of crosses with a few different roos. I'm getting ready to set up for trap nesting, hopefully with a batch of pullets almost ready to lay. The problem is that I work full time, so being able to trap nest for production of an individual hen will be hard. So far I've only done so to see which hen is laying which egg.

It's way easier for me to evaluate conformation, and get rid of the 'ugly' birds, but that means I might end up with pretty birds that lay like crap. Should I hold off on culling until I can do more trap nesting for production? Or cull away, and work on egg production next?

How hard is it to bring laying up to speed from a general barnyard flock?

Build 4 or 5 little pens. Move a rooster into the pens for half a day each and keep rotating. Each Hen will have a number, like 037. Mark the egg each day from each hen. after 5 days(or so), put them into an incubator. When you get to day 18 and are ready to set for hatching, use tomato baskets for each hen. When they hatch, band them with a color that identifies the hen\rooster combination and then keep notes on how the pullets lay. You can also work on whatever production you are interested in.

This is my second year of doing this for a local breeder and she is very pleased with the method and what she is learning about her flock.

 

[gjensen]

Single mating is the way to go when we can.

It is not good for a bird to be alone all year though.

Evaluating layers is an all year process. Otherwise it is just guessing.

 

[bnjrob]

I do understand the rescue option and if we were looking for a pet or house dog, there would be no other option but Rescue/Pound but I do want a puppy, in which a lot of effort will be invested and my thinking is that getting a breed or even a hybrid with the genetic material known to be working flock guardians will give me a better chance of success. Whatever we eventually get, the pup will be living in the chicken coop with the ONLY exceptions of vet care and VERY basic OB training. The training will be done on the farm by my partner, who has had experience in training/handling dogs during his Air force days. Oh...to our good luck for a change....we have made contact with a horse vet who lives on the property the 'BIG HORSE FOLKS' that he works for. He's willing to come by the farm and take care of all basic care, including worming, shots, etc.

Other good luck, my sister showed Pembroke Corgies before circumstances put an end to that and all the crates and large X-pens are stored in a shed. Some of them need a good wire brushing, primer and a good coat of industrial enamel to make them good as new. Most of that stuff will be invaluable, sooner or later!

ETS...We stopped in a rest/bar called Brick Alley Pub today where some 'horse' employees frequent. There was a very nice young lady there having lunch and she had two Heelers in her truck...one red the other blue. Beautiful dogs but they were very scary to me. They acted crazy-dangerous, were NOT tied or confined in any way but they never made even the slightest effort to leave that truck bed! They were parked in a shaded area.

after a discussion, the lady offered us a pup from the cross of the two dogs...the red female is due within two weeks. I don't know why the dog's tails were docked but it doesn't matter to me since most of the ones I see are docked. Anyhow, she offered us our pick for $100 dollars. We all went to her truck and while they let us pet them, neither dog was thrilled, they just barely tolerated us. She further told us that there are all kinds of chickens running around the horse farm where she worked and the dogs pay them no mind but won't tolerate any varmints around, day or night. These dogs are on the large side for the breed. The male is close to 75 pounds with a very broad neck and chest. He is registered and was purchased from The Blizzard Cattle Ranch in Oklahoma for a bunch of money, according to this gal, and I believe her. He really stood out! The female is not registered but is clearly purebred. So far...the best option for the money and puppies will be on the ground at the perfect time for us. Can't hardly go to dinner for ess than $100 bucks!!! And...they re only about 15 miles from our place.

Ok...this prospective pup has moved to the top of the list...especially after I checked the website of the male's breeder...Correction...The name is Buzzard's Australian Cattle dogs...

They started to dock tails on Heelers supposedly to keep the dogs from getting their tails stomped on by cattle. Personally I think it does them a great disservice, as they can maneuver better and faster when they have a tail that they can use to help balance them like a rudder. Most of the time Heelers have a very strong prey drive. So they need lots of training and reinforcement during their lifetime regarding their behavior around small animals like chickens. Fortunately they also generally have a strong drive to please their owners too, which helps a lot with training. They must have jobs that keep them busy or they will make their own fun.

The 12 yr old Heeler we recently had to put down, ran on a treadmill for most of her life in order to give her the exercise she needed to stay focused and not get into too much mischief. There were days that she went for 10 miles a day in divided sessions in order to keep up with her high energy level. I would trust her with many animals but not chickens. Asking her to set aside her high prey drive for some drumsticks on the run was just going to be too much, so she was kept away from the birds. She was the most obedient dog that we've had though and the only one that we could feel safe taking her outside off lead to play ball and Frisbee outside of a fenced area.

Heelers are not for people that just want a dog to do their own thing though, they require direction. And they greatly desire the company of people so putting them outside to do their own thing isn't something I would recommend.

 

[Turk Raphael]

They started to dock tails on Heelers supposedly to keep the dogs from getting their tails stomped on by cattle. Personally I think it does them a great disservice, as they can maneuver better and faster when they have a tail that they can use to help balance them like a rudder. Most of the time Heelers have a very strong prey drive. So they need lots of training and reinforcement during their lifetime regarding their behavior around small animals like chickens. Fortunately they also generally have a strong drive to please their owners too, which helps a lot with training. They must have jobs that keep them busy or they will make their own fun.

The 12 yr old Heeler we recently had to put down, ran on a treadmill for most of her life in order to give her the exercise she needed to stay focused and not get into too much mischief. There were days that she went for 10 miles a day in divided sessions in order to keep up with her high energy level. I would trust her with many animals but not chickens. Asking her to set aside her high prey drive for some drumsticks on the run was just going to be too much, so she was kept away from the birds. She was the most obedient dog that we've had though and the only one that we could feel safe taking her outside off lead to play ball and Frisbee outside of a fenced area.

Heelers are not for people that just want a dog to do their own thing though, they require direction. And they greatly desire the company of people so putting them outside to do their own thing isn't something I would recommend.

Thank you! At this point, all input is valuable to us. As a side note...only the female had her tail docked...the male did indeed have a natural tail but it wasn't very long. These two were certainly well trained but I can see where they could make the feathers fly if they went off the reservation!!!

Turk

 

[bmvf]

Quote:
Excellent question and answer.

This makes me want to start that 'chicken breeding for beginners' thread I mentioned a few weeks ago.

 

[jonsccm]

Excellent question and answer.

This makes me want to start that 'chicken breeding for beginners' thread I mentioned a few weeks ago.

That sounds great! I'd follow it!

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Another benefit is that the breeder is very nearby and can guide you thru the training. If you don't have any experience, or not much, a dog like the heeler can challenge your abilities. THe best thing I ever did was work hard at training my dogs. THe loved the attention , loved the work . . . and forever obeyed me. You need to be the alpha dog-- and that is a lot of constant work, but in the end the pack order makes for a more p leasant situation.

If you can swing it I highly recommend basic puppy training which includes soccializtion with other dogs and people. THis was especially important with the rotties and several other breeds. And perhaps the heeler too, though I have no personal experience with the breed. BUt hae seen pretty little froo- froo dogs bite their owners because the little dog was too small to need training . . . all dogs need training.

Sounds like you found your dog. $100 wont even buy me a dog from the shelters in my area!