BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[ronott1]

Got a note in my mailbox that I had a package waiting. That would be my eggs. They didn't call. So I'll get them in the morning. Really burns me that I didn't check when I drove past at 4pm. Oh well. Live and learn. I found gamebird feed and catfish feed at the feed store. The fish is 32% so I'm trying them both to see what I do best with. Close in price. $18 for gamebird and $17 for catfish feed. I'll do a 4:1 with the layer feed.

Be careful of the catfish feed. It sometimes has bad things in it for chickens.

 

[Arielle]

Got a note in my mailbox that I had a package waiting. That would be my eggs. They didn't call. So I'll get them in the morning. Really burns me that I didn't check when I drove past at 4pm. Oh well. Live and learn. I found gamebird feed and catfish feed at the feed store. The fish is 32% so I'm trying them both to see what I do best with. Close in price. $18 for gamebird and $17 for catfish feed. I'll do a 4:1 with the layer feed.

32% ??? GOod find. DOes it have a listing of other major components ( Calcium, etc) to compare to chicken feed/ layer feed.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
Well this is real interesting!, Thanks chickadoodles!
http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/historicpublications/pubs/SB307.PDF
It also explains why I can feather sex the Boese strain of Light Sussex.
It was developed in England and Canada before coming to America
generations ago. I have been looking for answers to that
question for quite some time. Esp. since I was told by US folk
that Light Sussex weren't a feather sexing variety.
Best,
Karen

 

[LindaB220]

Be careful of the catfish feed. It sometimes has bad things in it for chickens.

Good to know. It said 32% protein but I don't remember the rest of ingredients. Crude yada yada. I'll check out tomorrow when I get them out of the trunk. This little feed store sells chick starter, layer and gamebird. Tiny but adequate. I probably won't put it in the fermented batch. It'll smell too bad I bet.

 

[LindaB220]

Hi,
Well this is real interesting!, Thanks chickadoodles!
http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/historicpublications/pubs/SB307.PDF
It also explains why I can feather sex the Boese strain of Light Sussex.
It was developed in England and Canada before coming to America
generations ago. I have been looking for answers to that
question for quite some time. Esp. since I was told by US folk
that Light Sussex weren't a feather sexing variety.
Best,
Karen

Karen, I thoroughly enjoyed this little book. Only 27 pages but it has some really good info on this. I love it.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: You beat me to it Ron!! lol Ultimately that is where I was going.

 

[gjensen]

I need to pay attention to the SOP because to make olive eggers I am working with Marans and Ameraucana, and I can't make quality crossbreeds without good original stock. I don't care about show quality, just *good* dependable quality. Can't recall where I read it, but I'm working on the assumption that only about 10% of what I breed will be worth keeping. I also assume that crossbreeding, at least the initial generations, will make selection tougher due to unexpected variability. And there are certain traits from each breed that I want to keep over others. Aaaand I have my own feather preferences I'd like to work towards.

All this, and good egg production too. But since chickens will always be part of my food supply and business enterprise, I might as well enjoy the challenge of seeing if I can get them to do what I have in mind.

I'm glad there are people dedicated to certain breeds, for whatever reason. Even show birds that have lost some of their original purpose need to be there as foundation stock for other people to work back into productive strains, or work into interesting crossbreeding programs.

You do not to pay attention to the SOP. You are doing something "new".

What you need is to define your own standard. You have to have the type set in and clearly in your mind. You are looking for your own ideal, so you must have an ideal type in mind. Unless type is identical to a Standard variety (which would make it that breed), it will not be especially helpful. You need to have the type idealized to select the following generation.

If there is a color variety that exists in the Standard, the description of that color could be helpful.

Keeping the top 10% is the general advice. The emphasis is that your best birds are in that top 10%. You can make choices that are not precisely in that range. For example the first generation will only have as much variation as the flocks the parents come from. In other words the initial cross will be relatively consistent. Relative to the consistency the parent flocks had.
If the parent flocks are consistent the initial cross will be consistent. Forget about the 10% rule in the first generation. It would be irrelevant.

The next generation will be more variable. They will start going all over the place. Now you are looking for birds that have the type you are looking for. Hopefully you chose breeds that have the pieces and parts to put it together. If everything is not there, whether it is in the bird's genotype or phenotype, a third bird or breed will be necessary. It has to be there, to get them there.

You have to find the birds that have the type closest to the ideal that you have established before the project started. Then you can pick the birds that are closest to this ideal. It would be wise to hold onto any traits that these individuals do not have. You do not want to lose what you need, or you will be looking out again.

You did not need to hatch that many from the first generation cross, because the results were relatively consistent. The second generation will require some real quantity if you want to make progress. As much or more in the following.

Once a collection of individuals is identified as being close to the ideal, now you have to tighten up. Keeping the mating small and emphasizing the merits of those individuals. You need to magnify there influence in order to have some control. The variability will continue to be high in the offspring, so offspring similar in type to their parents probably should be bred back to their parents. In breeding is not a concern at this point, and you are doing this simultaneously in a at least a few families.

In about five years (with educated choices), five hundred birds, and about 7500.00 later you will begin to have the type set.

This is just to get the type to start coming consistently.

 

[chickadoodles]

I'm glad you all like it. I was reading it and saw Linda's post on cross breeding and thought I would share. And Karen that is so nice that you found your answer to the Light Sussex.

I have been having good luck with feather sexing my chicks this year not all but a good percent.

 

[seventreesfarm]

Once a collection of individuals is identified as being close to the ideal, now you have to tighten up. Keeping the mating small and emphasizing the merits of those individuals. You need to magnify there influence in order to have some control. The variability will continue to be high in the offspring, so offspring similar in type to their parents probably should be bred back to their parents. In breeding is not a concern at this point, and you are doing this simultaneously in a at least a few families.

That's about where I am starting to be right now. I'm looking at my 2nd & 3rd gen stock and seeing some that are right on target with my mental picture. And some of them are good egg producers too. Once I can start trap nesting I can get a better bead on that too.

Now that I have a few nearly perfect birds, I will set up pens with just them and my roos. I've also identified a crossbred cockerel to keep for next year's trials. And I will be cycling out my older roos for new stock that better fits what I want. I can also see parts of birds I like, and am looking for good matings to compensate for the parts of those birds I don't like.

I had a matriarch hen that threw some better daughters, but now I can take the best of those daughters and keep upgrading with better roos.

So much fun!

 

[gjensen]

That's about where I am starting to be right now. I'm looking at my 2nd & 3rd gen stock and seeing some that are right on target with my mental picture. And some of them are good egg producers too. Once I can start trap nesting I can get a better bead on that too.

Now that I have a few nearly perfect birds, I will set up pens with just them and my roos. I've also identified a crossbred cockerel to keep for next year's trials. And I will be cycling out my older roos for new stock that better fits what I want. I can also see parts of birds I like, and am looking for good matings to compensate for the parts of those birds I don't like.

I had a matriarch hen that threw some better daughters, but now I can take the best of those daughters and keep upgrading with better roos.

So much fun!

What is your target weight? The standard weight acts like an anchor. That has to be one of the overlooked, under appreciated, and neglected points. It helps keep us in check.

I do not know if you do this or not, but I like to handle y birds off of the roost at night. With just a flashlight I am not seeing the birds as much as I am feeling the bird. If that makes any sense. I am checking for mites, or this or that, but I handle them while I am at it. I have gotten a little better at feeling what I am looking for. The feather can fool you. Especially on the sot feathered breeds. The more "fluff" they have the harder it is to really tell.

What I do not get about the anti SOP crowd and vice versa is that we are doing the same thing. Different breeds, different ideals, and different points of emphasis. The process is largely the same. There has to be an ideal type, or there cannot be a consistency in performance. If the birds are all over the place, the results will be all over the place.

I have had more than a few commercial layers along the way. Handling them I began to realize just how consistent their type was. Yes they have pinched tails, poor feather quality, etc. etc. Still their type is very consistent and it reveals they consistency in type of the parent flocks. I am not saying that they all look the same though they are similar. I am saying that they all feel the same. They also have very consistent weights.

Feather can make the type, but it is not real type. Feather's contribution to type should be reserved to softening, accentuating, or highlighting lines. What does the work is under the feather, and that is where our largest concern should be.

I have my ideal type, and I found a breed that has it. As rare as they are, I found a flock that has it. It is not evident in all of the birds, and the rest still need work. The building blocks are there. I think I have what it takes to have a bird that consistently lays 220-240 large to extra large eggs and have the longevity to be worth keeping around for a few years. A fourth and fifth if they are any good, and can contribute. They are large enough to eat the extra cockerels, make use of the hens, or cull pullets. Still not so large as to be especially wasteful. Free ranged, they can give me more for less.

My mind and ideas have moved away fro roasting birds. The priority with chickens is usually eggs, but what to do with the extra males? I like them as light fryers, and flesh for recipes. Much more economical and sustainable. I would like a few birds for roasting, but think a half dozen capons can satisfy this want.

To me, I do not care as much about whether a breed is an accepted variety, project birds, or a Standardized breed. I like to see well bred birds. I like to look at a bird and say this bird would be good or this or that. I especially like to see a uniform flock of well bred birds that perform. They do not have to have precisely correct color, as long they have good color, and very good type. These birds might not win the Ohio Nationals, but anyone that knows the breed (or the birds in general) could appreciate them. And what it took to get them there.

I am not a fan of ornamental breeds, but I can appreciate the skill that requires to get them right. I am not a fan of fad egg colors, but I appreciate an egg that has good, shape, size and quality. I like to see the skill of the breeder in the egg carton. A uniform dozen eggs of good size and quality. Inside and out.

I like experiments, but what I like more is goals and progress. The fun is in the doing. The setbacks and the successes. One month I am disgusted, and the next I am encouraged. Every spring brings new hope.