BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[seventreesfarm]

I do like handling my birds to get a literal feel for how they are shaping up. Since I do zip ties for banding, I need to keep up with resizing them, so when I do I also check for muscle development on the breast bone, thigh and leg muscles, crop, pelvic structure, etc. I also trim flight feathers periodically, so that's another opportunity for a physical examination.

I don't have a weight standard in mind yet, since one of my parent breeds is ameraucana, and they can be pretty scrawny. Eventually I'd like to be in the barred rock range. My area can get blizzard conditions in winter, triple digits in summer, and we have plenty of eagles on the hunt. A solid well-feathered bird survives better in these conditions.

I'm hoping to get a few pics to share of a hen that comes close to my ideal. I want to sketch up my own SOP from her. And I've learned enough about line breeding not to worry about so much influence from a single hen. The eggs she lays are a lovely color, really good shell, winter layer, steady production. I have a few of her offspring with my three roos in the grow out pens, but next spring I will do some targeted matings with her.

 

[gjensen]

Handling is the way to go. It is kind of how I got the picture in my head that I do now. Not entirely, but where I started seeing what was important to me. I moved away from it, but find myself having moved back. I came to this place before I had the information available to me that I do now. Early on, it was learn the hard way.

I am not a big fan of the painting of the Catalana in the Standard. I spent some time interpreting the written section, and comparing the language used to describe other Mediterranean breeds, in particular the Spanish Breeds. I also spent some time searching out photos of them in other countries. It took some time to get a picture in my head, though I knew what I wanted. I ended up doing a sketch myself. I do not know how to communicate the picture other than it is a blockier version of the Leghorn. A little more tail angle, wider, longer, deeper. A Spanish comb, and more slope to the back. A higher station. A little less brick shape than a good Red, but higher shoulders. Similar in size to what a Red should be. Just a tad lighter.
I do not want them to be larger than they should be. I do not want the waste, and the bigger birds suffer in our heat and humidity. I also want an athletic and active bird, but I do not like nervous and flighty. Fortunately they did not come nervous and flighty. They are bold and confident. Active, but sure of themselves. They do not panic easily. They are assertive, but they are easy to manage. They are easy to contain. A three foot fence does it, but a four foot fence is better. They are not inclined to fly. Kind of the best of both worlds.

I purchased some Sandhill "Catalanas". They are not "pure" Catalanas, but they are a black tailed buff bird. They have slate legs and white earlobes. I cannot speak too much of them yet. They are only 6-7wks old. I located some pictures of some adults, and figured they might be useful. Time will tell. If I do anything, I will use them and breed back to my side. I need some help with some things, and they need to be "freshened up". I also doubt that I will use a male. I think that I would rather not have the temptation.

I am wondering how the color will work. I will not get into all of that, but I want to see something. I want to see how something works.

I would like to see your pictures. I will try to get a profile shot of one of the hens that is closer in type. It may illustrate what I am looking for. I have what I need here, I just need to clean them up. Get the color right. Our Standard calls for a more pure buff bird than what they are or is found in other countries.

Climate should be more of a consideration than what I see normally. Our winters are mild, but our summers are tough. The heat is the largest limitation here. I do not want to depend on fans and ice. I just want to open the door, and let them dust bathe in the shade, or whatever they decide to do. They seam to want to stay busy even when it is pretty hot, just in the shade. I live on a sand ridge and this sand gets hot and radiates the heat back at you. It is especially uncomfortable. Kind of like a desert with humidity. Just 30 miles east or west is not as bad.

Birds handle the cold better than the heat anyways. Here, if you keep the wind off of them, they are ok.

Increasing size is slow and tedious. It helps if someone has it, and it helps more if someone is larger than what is wanted. I need help with size. I will know better on the next generation. I will see what I come up with.

I have a lot to work on. I have a lot of hope with in this generation coming up. I need help. LOL.

 

[Arielle]

Seventrees-- if I might suggest: keep breeding the stock that gave y ou the birds that fit your goal. I learned in horse breeding that if the combo worked keep doing it. One grand old stallion wasa complete fluke in the breeding barn. Meaning he was brought in as animprover stallion and by the end of his life he produced a dynasty. They did not stop breeding him after two approved sons , rather kept on breeding him. He retired from breeding in his later years as he had over 15 sons breeding and several grandsons, not to mention his remarkable daughters.

Basically, keep breeding the birds that gave you the inital results you were looking for and that will broaden your genetic base for the next step.

 

[southernmomma]

Quote:

Why is this? Does the F2 gen start to see any variables behind the parent stock? Is this if the F1's are bred together and can it be mitigated by breeding an F2 back to parent stock to lock in a trait? Would F2Xparent be called F3?
Also, I realize both sexes need to be considered but is not one or the other a heavier influence on particular traits? ie female for type.

M

 

[gjensen]

Why is this? Does the F2 gen start to see any variables behind the parent stock? Is this if the F1's are bred together and can it be mitigated by breeding an F2 back to parent stock to lock in a trait? Would F2Xparent be called F3?
Also, I realize both sexes need to be considered but is not one or the other a heavier influence on particular traits? ie female for type.

M

If the parents used come from uniform flocks, the initial cross will be consistent. How it all "lines up" rules. Use color for example and as over rated as color genetics are, it is a good illustration. Often there is not a single gene that makes a color. It is a group of them, you know that. When you cross the birds that have color set, what rules is how the two color/patterns interact. Then if you cross the offspring, all the possible combinations start coming into play. It becomes like rolling dice. Even if it is weighted dice.

There is a lot more to the bird than color. Color is just paint. The initial cross is based on how what is there interacts. In the second cross and third cross, there is a huge amount of possibilities. Longer and shorter legs, longer and shorter length, bigger and smaller heads. Low tails, high tails, big combs, small combs, in between comb types, variation in eye color, and size . . . . . There is a lot there, and you just stirred the pot. Who knows what is coming to the surface.

That is why I say you have to know what you are doing, know where you want to go, and you better know how to get there. Otherwise you will spend a lot of money and time going in circles. That is in part, where the old timers discourage new people from projects. They know they are getting ready to spend a lot of money and never get anywhere, but make a bunch of below average mutts. They are not always trying to be mean.

Even when you find something you like, the variation in that bird and any mated with it, will throw a lot of off types, before you come up with a duplicate. It helps to know what bird in the opposite sex compliments that bird's type the most.

Even the most experienced have numerous setbacks, and it is a heck of a lot of work. It takes an enormous amount of hatching to get where you want to be. You can get to the same place with a pure breed, and most of the work has been done. Then you are only putting pressure on your particular priorities.

Once the pot is stirred up it will take a lot more than 30 chicks a year to get anywhere in five. It would be a lot easier if the color was disregarded all together, and type was the only concern. For example, if someone did not care that they had a variety of colors.

I am not knocking the projects. I kind of have one myself. I am trying to illustrate what it takes, but I am not a good communicator.

It is a lot simpler when you know what you are doing, and have dome research. Then you have directions, so to speak. You might get lost along the way, but you have your map.

 

[seventreesfarm]

I'm at 110 chicks so far this year. I'll probably do one more hatch this year to get some better looking Am roos, then work on trap nesting pullets over the winter. All my project birds should be laying by the time cold weather hits, so I can start looking at production as well as conformation. I did a few hatches over winters, but nothing puts you off of that like a 3 day power outage in 15F temps when you're on day 12 with a loaded incubator. I have a nice generator, but nature has a way of telling you when to give it up.

I only breed pea combs, so that variable is easy to nail down. I prefer beards and feather legs, but right now those factors don't trump tail and general body shape. As I fine tune things, I may start selecting for that. Some of my pullets inherited crowy heads from the Am side, and I want to correct that. I'm also not thrilled with how the Maran head has come out in the mix of some pullets, but I have a few that stand out. Not only will I keep those for breeding, but I will set up a few more pens with their same parents to see how many more 'pretty' ones I can get to have a bigger pool to work with.

All my birds are in a certain color range, so i don't do any further selection there. Leg color is another area I have decisions to make eventually. Since my hatches are either Am over Marans or olive-egger or Marans over Am or olive-egger, I end up with 2 types of offspring. I'm planning to select harder or the ones that more closely overlap and have traits I want. Hopefully start weeding out birds too far on either end of the spectrum.

I guess I don't really think of my project as taking too much time or money, since I always keep a laying flock that pays for itself, one way or another. I might as well entertain myself and learn more while I'm at it. I like reading up on genetics, then 'testing' myself by breeding crosses and seeing how close the results are to what I expected. So many variables though!

 

[Turk Raphael]

AHHHH! I think my 'guard dog' search is over! I'll know for certain this evening. Can't wait to get a puppy.

Also feel very happy about the breeder who we're getting our Buckeyes from. The decision was made on a 'gut feeling' but that works as well as anything sometimes when there are so many choices made available.

Happy on both accounts!!!

Turk

 

[Arielle]

George your comminication is fine. If I can follow it-- it was just fine. lol

Breeding to create a new breed is not only time consuming but having many people in on the project hastens the development.

 

[gjensen]

Why is this? Does the F2 gen start to see any variables behind the parent stock? Is this if the F1's are bred together and can it be mitigated by breeding an F2 back to parent stock to lock in a trait? Would F2Xparent be called F3?
Also, I realize both sexes need to be considered but is not one or the other a heavier influence on particular traits? ie female for type.

M

I meant to comment that the males for color and the females for type and size is a wives' tale.

There was some value n the saying. In it's day, the emphasis was on the cock bird. Naturally, in a flock he had the most influence. In smaller mating's, putting emphasis on the female helped make progress. In a pair they have equal influence, less sex linked color traits.

There are plenty of people that still swear by these wife's tales. They see in a particular pairing that the offspring strongly inherited the size of the female. There idea is then validated, and you will never be able to get them too budge. However, if you trialed tis with a thousand random bird, your outcome would come close to 50/50.

I like the emphasis on the female side, because it is easy to underemphasize her influence. Still, special attention should be given to a superior performing and typed male. He will have more influence overall. Concerning egg laying, he has to be proved through his daughters. Obviously you cannot count his eggs. That is where the idea comes that egg laying ability is passed through the sire. It is true and not true. Because of familial influence, it may be wise to choose good type cockerels from superior performing hens. Then test the cockerels, keeping the cock bird that has the best producing offspring. You are concentrating the compilation of genes that makes a good layer, a good layer. You cannot se some of these traits, so you prove them. Over time, you are strengthening the ability of a family. It is best to see it as a family, because of the variability in individuals. Even top producing strains, produce average individuals. The concept is the same, but the emphasis is different.

The family behind the bird has as much or more influence than the individual.

That is the idea behind a bird being pre potent. The genetics have lined up behind the bird, in the bird, where that bird will have more influence. Like them or not, my NHs are well bred and are pretty consistent. Especially with the females. If I used one of my NHs with a mixed breed bird, my NH's influence will dominate in the first generation. That would give them the appearance of being pre potent. Really the family behind the bird is the qty. of influence.

 

[gjensen]

George your comminication is fine. If I can follow it-- it was just fine. lol

Breeding to create a new breed is not only time consuming but having many people in on the project hastens the development.

That could be true if t is the right people. It is certainly more cost effective, and safer. For example, if I lose a trait along the way, but someone else did not . . . A lot of were you are as a lot to do wit were you started.

Lets say I got lucky and started with a male with size, and you didn't. You might struggle along wit size, were I might be in good shape. I, in turn, could help by offering a cockerel with exceptional size. You might could help me wit something else.

Variation is a strength and a weakness.