BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Our Roost]

Well, lets move on now to breeding for production--- eggs and or meat. I just purchased some very nice bielefelder stock and will be crossing these with my blue orpingtons next spring. I really think this is an excellent mix for progeny and meat. Add the fact that they are both good egg layers and grow reasonably fast to table weight. Bielefelders are sexable at birth and I hope I can transfer this trait. I am breeding belgium malines this spring and hope to acquire some izegemse. This is another future cross if all goes well.

 Why do you think that the two breeds will be an excellent cross? 

What kind of improvement do you expect or hope for?

How long do they take to reach table weights? What are these weights? Where are each now?

What to you is a good layer? How many do they lay per year?

How much do the adult birds eat per day? How much does it cost per pound to get them where you like them? How many pounds of feed does it cost to get them to POL? When is point of lay?

Why do you think you will be able to "transfer" the ability to sex the chicks from the Bielefelders? How do plan to  you accomplish this?

I like to hear how people are going about their business, and what their goals are. I like to hear numbers. Not an elementary 4 eggs per week etc. I cannot get any information like that. I like to hear that I saw such and such weights at this point, in this season, with this feed etc. I like to read about people actually breeding and what they are trying to do. What their challenges and problems are. What progress has been made?

You are right. It would be nice to get to this.

Good morning Mr. Jenson! I had to ask myself why you were posing so many questions to me in regards to my projects? They are all good questions any person exploring the benefeits of utility breeding needs to ask ones self before venturing into wasting valuable time and monies. Trust that I have explored all that you have asked and surely wont have direct answers but only possibilities of what you and myself asked before I decided to do this.
Utility breeding is unique to homesteading practices of the farmer. The farmer sets his own goals, needs and wants from his livestock and works to attain that. When I first started raising chickens, I wanted birds for both meat and eggs. I aquired 5 dual purpose breeds with 5 birds of each breed to get myself acquainted. Took me a very short time to realize that all hens lay eggs but the dual purpose factor in the meat department fell short of expectations. 2 of the 5 breeds I acquired were better egg layers than the rest and their eggs were consistent in size regularly. It was good to note this quality of this breed. Lets call that the first piece of the puzzle in achieving my own wants and needs for a utility breed. Do you see where I am going with this? I am tinkering with genetics, bird traits, habits and all that you have asked. You can read as much as you can on a breed and purchase good stock but until you have owned and experienced it yourself, it could lack every quality you were looking for. Keeping a log or record noting points of interest is more of a question you are asking me if I have done all that and do I know what and why I am doing it. Much like you Mr. Jenson, I have mentors and I ask as many questions as possible. I am sure that old time farmers must have asked these same questions on how to feed their families and eek out a living. I could very well buy bird breeds already suiting my needs but I want something I feel will fit as my own makings.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
I was thinking the same thing....I'm not going to be recording finishing weights and all, nor do I have a way to accurately record egg numbers for each bird as I don't have trap nests, so it's more of a "feel" of the abundance of the eggs by keeping a total count according to the number of mature layers in the coop. Sometimes I can note which have stopped and which have started and I hope I can remember to write it down but I probably won't because I forget.

I also don't record feed amounts per bird but go on total feed bought for X amount of time compared to feed consumption of flocks in the past of similar numbers or even feed consumption compared to this time last year if I have the same numbers eating. Sometimes it's just watching the birds at feeding time and noting who is the first there and last to leave and who takes a few bites and gets back out on forage while other birds are still chowing at the feeder. Those feed thrifty birds are duly noted but I guess I need to record those somewhere other than in my mind now that I'm doing more intensive breeding.

But, I know I'll never be that particular in my record keeping...I just don't have that kind of a mind. I'm more instinctual than analytical and that's how I'll be breeding chickens as well. It's served me pretty well all these years for keeping the most productive and feed thrifty birds in the coop and culling those that were not~made me good money on egg sales and profit over and above the feed and operating bill, so I'll run with it. I will try to keep some measurements according to Hogan, as that's something that is finite and can be measured accurately and recorded here, even with my loosey goosey methodology.

 

[bnjrob]

For winter I moved the NH's from my chicken tractor to a small shed when it got cold. The Del's I got in November were ready to move from the brooder to my main chicken coop in late December. I need to make another chicken tractor but could use two more I guess. I need some chicken wire. It would be nice to have individual cages for a rooster or two when I need a place to go with one.

I liked having chickens running around the farm last year but it got to be a nuisance when they dug holes in the flower beds, pooped on the walks, and moved their eggs to different spots each week. They cleaned up the place from bugs and maybe even small mice. Once the dog left his dead groundhog lay in the yard and it took me a few days to move it. When I did the chickens came running for some maggots! I liked having them scratch through bedding looking for something to eat. They would aerate and dry out the bedding. It was also funny to watch them clear the milk dish of cats. One was a hatchery Delaware we called Delly. She came up, head bobbing and eyed the milk. The cats quietly lapping milk saw her and kept an eye on her. She walked up to them and picked at their ears till they left. She cleared the bowl of hungry cats and drank her fill!

Gotcha. Last year we started building small a-frames that can accommodate 1-2 roosters or a few hens - sort of whatever we might need them for. It helps a lot with having our extra breeding males, as well as when we have a bird that needs to be isolated for an injury or if they are being a bad bully and beating up everybody in their pen. They work well for both temporary and permanent housing for us.

Otherwise we have large a-frame tractors that we separate the males and females when they are approx. 2 months old. Separating by sexes to grow out was one of the best changes we made in our flock. The growth was much better on them all. There is still fights in the cockerel pens but not nearly as bad as when they were living with females. And the female pens have nest boxes whereas we dont' have to put nest boxes into the male pens, so that saves on building cost and time.

We recently turned our non-breeding stock into a free range flock with a long term goal of everyone free ranging. But I've already seen how you have to keep things protected or those chickens will get themselves into a mess just doing what chickens normally do.

 

[Beekissed]

Free ranging the whole flock solves many issues for me and has done so over the years. The opportunity for the birds to have space enough to get away from one another is great, the need to flock for safety purposes seems to increase good social behaviors, youngsters can split off into their own subset and have their own flock life separate from the adults and this works so very well. They blend with the adult flock as they approach sexual maturity and it all seems to go so peacefully. Since I don't keep more than two breeding males on hand at any given time, this eliminates the need for bachelor pads unless it's just the two males and just prior to breeding.

Of course, the very best benefit is having a single feeding and watering system and a single manure management issue, which keeps flock tending more simple, less time consuming and more ergonomic.

 

[Beer can]

I like free ranging my birds, don't like the poop all over. They pretty much leave our garden alone.
I did want to kill them all the day they ate every single small pepper off my big ornamental medusa pepper plant I had in a big pot by our back door. I was going to save the seeds to plant more next year, they ate every sigle one! I prayed they pooped fire!!

 

[bnjrob]

Free ranging the whole flock solves many issues for me and has done so over the years. The opportunity for the birds to have space enough to get away from one another is great, the need to flock for safety purposes seems to increase good social behaviors, youngsters can split off into their own subset and have their own flock life separate from the adults and this works so very well. They blend with the adult flock as they approach sexual maturity and it all seems to go so peacefully. Since I don't keep more than two breeding males on hand at any given time, this eliminates the need for bachelor pads unless it's just the two males and just prior to breeding.

Of course, the very best benefit is having a single feeding and watering system and a single manure management issue, which keeps flock tending more simple, less time consuming and more ergonomic.

If it was safe enough, I would let every one of our birds free range. But right now we just don't have enough good breeding stock to let that happen. And there just aren't enough folks with our breed to be able to get replacements if our breeders were taken by a predator. But that is our eventual goal - to get to where we have enough uniformly good looking, good producing birds, so that they all can range and we would not suffer a serious setback in our breeding if some were lost.

Our birds do well in confinement - but they also get at least 10 sq ft/bird if not more, they are allowed to range with supervision periodically, and they all live in mobile housing so they can be moved to fresh ground. It makes a LOT more work for me than if they were just stuck in permanent pens. I would love to be able to have all of them free range, all of the time. It would save a lot of extra work. But this has been the best situation we could come up with to keep them healthy and happy, yet still safe from the predators we have. They do well with the system we have set up, but if given a choice, they would rather free range all day. The non-breeding flock we let free range rarely go back to their house except to lay in the nest boxes. Once they are out in the morning, they like to stay out till dark. And they are doing a great job of tilling up the unused garden beds in preparation for planting this season once the rain stops.

 

[jbkirk]

I would just like to say that I think that they have agreed to disagree, so there isn't really any use in discussing it farther.
MK

 

[dfr1973]

Good morning Mr. Jenson! I had to ask myself why you were posing so many questions to me in regards to my projects? They are all good questions any person exploring the benefeits of utility breeding needs to ask ones self before venturing into wasting valuable time and monies. Trust that I have explored all that you have asked and surely wont have direct answers but only possibilities of what you and myself asked before I decided to do this.

Bringing out yet another common Army saying: "Trust, but verify!"

George challenged me with pretty much the same questions. It made me think, and to quantify and qualify my goals in a concrete manner.

 

[Our Roost]

Well Beekissed, I feel anything but challenged when someone Questions me or what I have going on with chickens. I have OCD ( obsessive chicken disorder ) also! But in Mr. jensons case, if he would have recognized the 2 breeds I mentioned for the cross, based on his own intellect and chicken experience, he could see the value and gain to be had. Or he could have stated there wasnt really that much to gain using those 2 breeds. He didnt have to run me through the mill with all the why questions, but he did. Most mentors either encourage you or discouage your efforts when you ask for their expertise. But they all pose the same questions of what it is your looking for. No offense taken as They can be a big help to newbies. The problem is I am not a newby and this isnt my first rodeo! Ha ha. There is lots to be gained from Utility breeding. Breeding for a utility purpose is more important than breeding for SOP standards. Take for example the climate in Michigan verses the climate in Texas. I surely want to breed something that will hold up to my climate verses theirs! So I want a pea combed, cold hardy, good egg layer with lots of meat that tastes good and develops fast. Soooo, I have my all my ducks in a row on what my goals are and what my perspective is to achieve them. I will keep you and others posted on the outcome as it progresses and what the results are.

 

[Beekissed]

I like free ranging my birds, don't like the poop all over. They pretty much leave our garden alone.
I did want to kill them all the day they ate every single small pepper off my big ornamental medusa pepper plant I had in a big pot by our back door. I was going to save the seeds to plant more next year, they ate every sigle one! I prayed they pooped fire!!

I learned to fence the garden. Not just for the chickens but for the dog who guards them all day....he loves tomatoes and sweet corn and will rob the garden in a heart beat if I don't fence him out.

When I wasn't feeding fermented feed, the dogs ate all the poop, so no problems. Now that I feed fermented feed, the poop is no longer attractive to the dog, the poop has no smell, attracts no flies and disappears in the next rain or just dries up and crumbles into the grass...which fertilizes their own pasture, so it's a win/win for me.