BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

As I breed brothers and sisters to eat other, questions start to rise regarding proper breeding. I'm sure it has been covered here before, but could someone give a clear, concise outline of possible breeding directions using the same origin of genetics. My goals are much more production than looks so inbreeding becomes and issue more quickly.

Forget about it your first year. The inbreeding coefficient initially is no closer for sibling mating than Father/Daughter etc. That changes in the generations following. This does matter more when the source already has a high inbreeding coefficient. That is not the case in your situation.

Brother sister mating can even be used as a tool intermitted, but in a limited way, and with caution.

Vigor is huge in a production flock. A reason some are disappointed (sometimes) in more closely bred lines, and they may whine, when the solution might have been an outcross to birds of similar quality.

The most helpful thing that you can do concerning vigor is to hatch a lot, and select for it. That cannot be underemphasized. There is variability in the numbers alone. Hatching 30 chicks from a male or two year after year will tighten them up pretty darned quick. That can be good and necessary, and that can be bad.

Health and vigor is the number one consideration when selecting. The most vigorous birds are often (not always) the most productive. Vigor is especially important when selecting cockerels, because as an individual they have more potential influence. Mated in pairs there is equal contribution, but in flock mating or anywhere in between, the males will have more influence.

If I started with 24 chicks, I am going to keep 2 cockerels, and four pullets. I would mate the one male on the four pullets, and then the other. This is just in theory, because if I was not happy with any of the cockerels I would kill everyone of them, and start over. BUT . . .hypothetically, I am going to take the offspring in two different directions based on the cocks. From there, there is any number of breeding plans to follow. And I do, but not religiously, because I will not be so dogmatic as to limit myself. I always reserve the right to change my mind, and to do as I please on the side.

No matter the breeding plan, it is all for naught if good and vigorous birds are not selected. Like begets like, if the influence of the family behind the individuals is not considered.

I flock of mutts will become inbred very quickly if they are allowed to breed will nilly on the yard. Just because they are not uniform in type and color does not mean that they are not getting too close, and too quickly.

It is helpful to remember that the developed birds behind the commercial crosses are closely bred, and well bred. The parents are very high performers themselves. This is not to say that vigor is not important because it is. It is to say that well bred, and closely bred, is not necessarily synonymous with a lack of vigor.

All of it depends on the breeding choices. It is learning when, and when not to.

There are a million breeding plans out there. Pick what you like. Personally, to start out, there is no harm in flock mating. Some might gasp, but production flocks generally were and are. There are even very successful exhibition breeders that practice it, or some variation of it.

No matter what is chosen it still boils down to choices, and selection choices.
 
That is a decent 11 wk carcass. With good smart management, you could make good 12-14wk fryers and harvest them before they started to get tough. That is what we should be able to do. Instead we often consider it a badge of honor to harvest old birds.

Did you weigh them? Weight, feed, housing, management particulars are helpful at young ages.

It is good to see you culling and harvesting early. We should. However, that does mean we need to retain enough to make final selections. Keep that in mind. It can happen that for some reason or another that we do not end up with a cockerel that we want to use moving forward.

Looks good. Keep at it.
I'm not sure about the "badge of honor to harvest old birds." The only "old" birds I'd consider to be a badge of honor to slaughter are capons - and I am not giving up on that idea, just working my way up the (almost vertical?!?) steep learning curve. Angela had put up some interesting quotes from an old Wyandotte publication that mentioned early growth, not slow to mature for the breed, and that is also what Luanne told me she selects for.

Oh, Luanne is planning for an April hatch with 50/50 blue and black, and I'll be happily buying her black phase chicks again. This batch will be the first chicks from her young, large, and very rotund blue rooster! I was surprised back in January when she said he was her junior and had not gotten chicks from him yet.

For comparisons, I am going by feel within batches, and taking pictures of them next to some fixed object for scale, like the 1 gallon waterers I have. I am also keeping notes on my blog, which I use as my journal that the cat can't eat and the dog can't pee on (yes, those two have things backwards). Right now I only have a small digital scale that is not turning on now ... annoying because I liked weighing my leftover yarn to see how much yardage each pattern needs for socks I really like. I am happy with the results of how I raise up chicks, so I will be doing the same for future batches of chicks and hope to keep that mostly-constant.

Right now, there is a whole lot of "plan to," and "future chicks" as I wait for the first set of P gens to finish growing up. I am also trying to keep things balanced enough that hubby doesn't get stressed out trying to build fast enough to keep up with all the plans I make.
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He certainly loves the fresh eggs, and enjoys the homegrown meat as well, and this year he is really helping out with the gardens too. I have a good man here.

I hope this is mostly-coherent. I waited until I started my 3rd mug of coffee.
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I'm not sure about the "badge of honor to harvest old birds." The only "old" birds I'd consider to be a badge of honor to slaughter are capons - and I am not giving up on that idea, just working my way up the (almost vertical?!?) steep learning curve. Angela had put up some interesting quotes from an old Wyandotte publication that mentioned early growth, not slow to mature for the breed, and that is also what Luanne told me she selects for.

Oh, Luanne is planning for an April hatch with 50/50 blue and black, and I'll be happily buying her black phase chicks again. This batch will be the first chicks from her young, large, and very rotund blue rooster! I was surprised back in January when she said he was her junior and had not gotten chicks from him yet.

For comparisons, I am going by feel within batches, and taking pictures of them next to some fixed object for scale, like the 1 gallon waterers I have. I am also keeping notes on my blog, which I use as my journal that the cat can't eat and the dog can't pee on (yes, those two have things backwards). Right now I only have a small digital scale that is not turning on now ... annoying because I liked weighing my leftover yarn to see how much yardage each pattern needs for socks I really like. I am happy with the results of how I raise up chicks, so I will be doing the same for future batches of chicks and hope to keep that mostly-constant.

Right now, there is a whole lot of "plan to," and "future chicks" as I wait for the first set of P gens to finish growing up. I am also trying to keep things balanced enough that hubby doesn't get stressed out trying to build fast enough to keep up with all the plans I make.
hugs.gif
He certainly loves the fresh eggs, and enjoys the homegrown meat as well, and this year he is really helping out with the gardens too. I have a good man here.

I hope this is mostly-coherent. I waited until I started my 3rd mug of coffee.
caf.gif

Forget going by feel, and get a new scale. Going by feel is about like going by emotions to make decisions. The only feel should be feeling to compare weighed birds within a batch of hatch mates. Compare different ages at the same ages from year to year.
 
What can you learn in a week or two?
My thoughts are that I would be able to cull the hens giving small eggs and those with blood spots although it's been a couple weeks since we've gotten blood spots. As far as quantity during those 2 weeks; I assumed that the change would knock them back, I assumed that some would and some wouldn't adapt to a cage, but I didn't think about birds having different laying cycles although I should have assumed that. These assumptions are coming from my dairy background working with animals.

Putting both of your replies together, I'm trying to figure out a plan for housing and genetic progress/direction. The plan needs to be simple so it takes little time for chores which may be done by my wife and kids. If I need to hatch a lot and I'm not keeping many birds then I'm having hatches every month and have multiple groups of chicks. That is an option but I need to get pens in place. As I type that I realize that maybe I'm trying to do too much and need to come back to what's practical. Currently I like my two breeds and want to continue with both. In my back pocket I have the option of crossing them for heterosis and breeding stock but at this point I would cross them for purely production birds.

If you were in the situation that I'm in now, with 11 hens and 1 rooster that are siblings, how would you proceed from there assuming they meet your specs? Breed siblings of the resulting generation keeping an eye on vigor?
 
My thoughts are that I would be able to cull the hens giving small eggs and those with blood spots although it's been a couple weeks since we've gotten blood spots. As far as quantity during those 2 weeks; I assumed that the change would knock them back, I assumed that some would and some wouldn't adapt to a cage, but I didn't think about birds having different laying cycles although I should have assumed that. These assumptions are coming from my dairy background working with animals.

Putting both of your replies together, I'm trying to figure out a plan for housing and genetic progress/direction. The plan needs to be simple so it takes little time for chores which may be done by my wife and kids. If I need to hatch a lot and I'm not keeping many birds then I'm having hatches every month and have multiple groups of chicks. That is an option but I need to get pens in place. As I type that I realize that maybe I'm trying to do too much and need to come back to what's practical. Currently I like my two breeds and want to continue with both. In my back pocket I have the option of crossing them for heterosis and breeding stock but at this point I would cross them for purely production birds.

If you were in the situation that I'm in now, with 11 hens and 1 rooster that are siblings, how would you proceed from there assuming they meet your specs? Breed siblings of the resulting generation keeping an eye on vigor?

That could be a good way to sort out who is laying eggs with blood spots consistently. Do not cull them for a single blood spot. Every hen can lay one. It is that some hens lay them regularly. Of course some might say the stress of moving them might cause them to lay blood spots. (I am just kidding)

I think that you did not cull enough on the pullets, and did not keep enough cockerels. The old rule of them was to keep again half of the cockerels that you intend to use. Chickens die. If you lost a single cock, you would be in a bind. Now, if you wanted to keep more pullets, so be it, but do not breed them all. At least only breed half.

Since you are already down to a single male, split them an the side of the dams. Pen up two separate groups of pullets, and rotate the cockerel/cock between the two. Mark the offspring accordingly. Pick a cockerel from each side, and pullets from each side. Switch the cockerels, and move forward with two families. You can expand down the road if you choose. It will be simpler to start with two families. If you do start another family, make sure the foundation is your best. We should want to start a family with something we get excited about.

Both of your flocks are in good shape concerning "diversity". One is crossed strains, and the other is a rebuilding project. Do not worry about a thing, but consider what I stated above about switching cockerels next year. Obviously you would not want to repeat it again and again. Just start heading in two different directions, and add another direction along the way. You want to get them a little father a way from each other along the way, and rotate as you feel that you need to. A third family is good for bringing a new bird in every now and then. Crossing with your birds, before introducing them. There is always the fear of losing gains, and adding a problem that you did not have before. It is always first do no harm.

What you want to do now is to tighten them up within families and gain some uniformity. Variability is an enemy of production, as it is any type of breeding. Variability means variable results, both good and bad. You want them all as good as your best birds, and consistently producing the same as good or better. Always striving to make progress and replacing good with better. Then when you do cross breeds to make your sex links the results will be a high degree of heterosis, and uniform results.

You are right to want to get back to simple. I am not able to do that and it is a strength and weakness of mine. Just simply starting to build two small families would be a good goal this year. You can switch the new cockerels next year and avoid any concern of mating siblings again. Identifying who is consistently laying eggs with blood or meat spots will help you trim the females down.
Also if you have any hens that are as good or better than some of your best pullets, make sure that you use them. The same for the cock. You can do a father daughter mating, or a son over their mother. You can figure all of that out when you get there. What you do not want is your plan to hold you back from emphasizing your best birds.

I realize that I am not being particularly helpful, and saying a lot. Some of this will mean more later. Do as you said, keep it simple, breed your best birds, build an additional family, and you can worry about the rest along the way. Even if you want more families, and some do, worry about building one at a time. This hobby requires patience. Trying to do it all at once like I try to do just complicates things. You can try to speed progress up after you get a pace set.
 
There is another cockerel at my buddies farm. I sent him along when I moved the rainbow layer assortment. Maybe I'll ask to get him back if he's around. His wife didn't care to be woken up at 4AM...

The Delaware pullets were culled from 8 to 4. I only kept one male. The pullet culling was a spur of the moment thing and I mostly looked at width and depth.

The NH group; I did not cull any pullets because I could not tell a noticeable difference between any of them. That was last fall, I'll look at them tonight when I collect eggs but I'm thinking I still won't be able to find many differences. I need to build up some numbers so I have enough eggs. I want at least 15 to 20 birds laying.

Your post was long but like you say it will start to make sense. I need to bookmark some pages or copy and paste your posts to a word doc so I can reference it later.
 
My kids (all adults) never cease to amaze me and I guess I'm in the same boat as most parents.

It was simple to pry the Octagon 40 from Turk because all the additional birds they might want can be provided by their broody Dark Cornish hens. The fact is, neither part of that couple really wants to breed large numbers of chickens and neither do we but our needs exceed what a very small incubator (20 eggs) can deal with. Now, I'm told the new one from Turk is not quite big enough for our needs but still fall short of firing up the old incubator that we used for years....so.....Jason and Ariel have decided to build one.

They watched a couple vids on youtube and there's absolutely no doubt they can do it. They have ordered a couple new fans that are used to cool PC towers and are off to town to pick up the rest of what they need.

Again, I know what they build will work but from what I see of the plans...it will be bigger than I would make it.


Then...I'm not making it!
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My kids (all adults) never cease to amaze  me and I guess I'm in the same boat as most parents.

It was simple to pry the Octagon 40 from Turk because all the additional birds they might want can be provided by their broody Dark Cornish hens.  The fact is, neither part of that couple really wants to breed large numbers of chickens and neither do we but our needs exceed what a very small incubator (20 eggs) can deal with. Now, I'm told the new one from Turk is not quite big enough for our needs but still fall short of firing up the old incubator that we used for years....so.....Jason and Ariel have decided to build one.

They watched a couple vids on youtube and there's absolutely no doubt they can do it.  They have ordered a couple new fans that are used to cool PC towers and are off to town to pick up the rest of what they need.

Again, I know what they build will work but from what I see of the plans...it will be bigger than I would make it.


Then...I'm not making it!   :idunno  



Good luck on that. My cheapie bit the dust finishing the last hatch. I'll try to get a better one this time.

Packing my clothes this pm. Leaving rehab tomorrow at noon. Walking great. Plus the added benefit on making new great friends. Will I see them again? Probably not, but good friends the same
 
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Hope that everyone had a good holiday. We had steak and homemade fries with onions. Now that the rain has stopped I've been able to get outside today and do a few things. My SIL goes with me but said from now on just to take my phone.
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I see so many things that have been neglected due to my rehab 3 weeks and I can't wait to go gang busters until I get them done. I do have a concern. With white chickens it's appearant. Maybe getting unlimited food while I was gone or have mites or something, 3 of my girls have the runs. SIL also changed the layer pellets while I was gone. They all need to be able to get out and roam daily. Suggestions? Ideas?
 

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