BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Our Roost]

Hmm, I had black sex links and they had been the best layers I ever purchased by far. I try to offset the cost of feed by selling some eggs but I raise meat birds also. Not as productive egg layers but they taste good! Most never lay an egg before we cull them. I'm about 2 years away from a reasonable utility breed. I get more for myself and family this way. I couldnt possibly eat that many eggs anyway! :/

 

[gjensen]

Nope, not comparing to hybrid sex links. Can't stand those birds. I'm comparing heritage lines...those developed by a breeder...to those "heritage" type breeds sold by hatchery. The WR hatchery stock I've had lay like a dream, all seasons, and for years and can put a person ahead of the feed bill every day of the week and twice on Sundays. The BAs from the hatchery even better. What I've read about and what little I've experienced with the heritage line breeder quality WRs is that they think it's good laying to lay 4-5 eggs per week in peak season. That, to me, is not good laying. Maybe I've been spoiled by the hatchery stock I've owned but one most certainly can turn a profit on a laying flock, even today.

For instance, in 57 days my teeny flock laid 347 eggs(9 laying age hens, though not all are laying all the time and some not at all) and in that time I've bought one $10 bag of layer feed and still haven't fed it all out. If I sold those eggs~which I can do easily in these parts~for $2.50 per I'd have made $30. During peak season that can go on for some months. Those 9 birds plus a rooster are down to eating about 2-3 c. of feed now due to the forage being so high and that will continue all spring until fall, with feed consumption dropping all the while~but the laying won't diminish until the birds start to molt. Last year I was feeding a cup and a half to 14 birds in September.

If a person cannot turn a profit on laying birds then they might want to look at their methods. Free ranging, fermented feed, keeping only good layers, intentional planting of quality forages and arranging foraging opportunities that include high protein intake, etc.

I've heard it said on this forum over and over that one cannot make a profit but I manage to do it year after year with very little effort, so all I can figure is that folks are working hard but not smart or don't know how to raise animals on the cheap. They don't need fancy buildings nor fancy equipment and they certainly don't need high dollar feed to produce an egg.

You have managed your little flock well. Many could benefit from some of your ideas.

However, I am still unable to see where you have made a profit. Then there is a conflict of sorts.

You say 5 eggs per week is not enough, but that is typical of the hatchery stock less the commercial strains. That is also the average that you gave above.

I am skeptical of the claims that the show strain Rocks averaging 4-5 eggs per week. It is more like 3-4. Then they have seasonal slow downs, take forever to molt, take for ever to come into lay, come back into full lay late in the season etc. I am sure there is an exception out there somewhere, but I have tried them. They eat way too much for what little they produce. The only thing I think thy are useful for, is the show cage they are bred for. Then possibly to improve the type and carcass on the hatchery "version".
In fact that is what I would do if I was interested in the Whites.

Where I do not see the profit is you are describing a very short interval in time. If it is recent, it is during peak season. What the numbers do not take in consideration is facility depreciation, the cost of accessing the feed, and labor. You could not convince me that in those two months that your time and effort was not worth the $15 per month.
It also does not describe the cost of replacement or establishing the flock.
Then to actually attempt a profit, you would have to scale up in a large way. The labor would increase, and you would be able to rely less on your forage. The forage that would not be there at all in the coldest days of winter.

You are not describing a profit, but you are describing excellent and prudent management.

Second to genetics, performance and efficiency depends on feed and management most. You do have reasonably efficient layers (genetics), and manage them well.

 

[gjensen]

One of the problems in these conversations is that we all talk about different birds, and goals.

I agree that the hatchery breeds are much more practical for the majority of people. They are smaller, will eat less, and most of the time (not always) lay a little more. A small flock like Bee describes is a prudent way to go. A hatchery flock of Australorps, Reds, or White Rocks is a good homestead type flock. Especially if someone put the effort into improving carcasses at the youngest ages, and breed type, which may require an out cross. That is a long term commitment, and it takes time.
Then the commercial utility strains cannot be beat when egg cost is the lone concern. Especially the commercial strains of Leghorns.

The problem comes in when someone does not want to use commercial meat birds and wants both a meat bird, and a layer in the same bird. It can be had, but the eggs will cost more. Meat birds eat more. There is no way around that. Then they will never perform like the hybrids. There is a reason that they have and are being lost to time.

There is no perfect bird or breed. We have to find our own balance. I like finding and breeding a breed. I have no respect for those that perpetuate poor examples of a breed, and then share them with others. If they do not leave the yard as anything more than colored layers, I have no problem with it. No harm, no fowl.

Personally I have found my balance. I like my Catalanas. I like the progress that I am making. My project line (which has some vigor) is laying 240 extra large eggs in the pullet year. The young cockerels are putting on pretty good carcasses at very young ages. The breeders eat very little feed, preferring to forage. I let them out in the morning and they do not return to the feeder until the evening. No special methods, just open the door.

Decent carcasses at young ages help my cost of reproducing the flock a lot. I culled some 6wk old birds last night, and skinned them to feed the dogs. I was pleased, and may do some more tonight for us to spatchcock and grill. If I do not, the dogs will get a few more, and I will eat some fresh birds this coming weekend.

I like to being able to cull and use the cockerels from early on, up until they start crowing (hypothetically speaking).

Now if I can maintain this over the coming generations remains to be seen. I may not do as well, but that is the goal.

I have grown tired of oversized birds, but I do not like poor carcasses, and undersized birds. I want to be able to use what I cull, and I like to start early.

I am going to get back into Rabbits. I think that they will compliment my Catalana project well. I am running into something similar sourcing stock. The show stock are not as good of producers. I like breeding and improving a breed, and there are breeds of rabbits that I like. I am not sure that I want to make that commitment. I have one now. An option that I am seriously considering is getting purely commercial stock from a commercial producer.
I have some decisions to make. I believe if we are going to breed a breed that we should do well by that breed. By going to a non breed, then I only have to be loyal to the numbers. The priority is the production of meat, and I am not certain that I want to make another big commitment. I am considering breed types, and considering whether or not I can be faithful to both.

 

[Beekissed]

I've had this discussion before with folks. It never really sinks in. They stand firmly on the fact that one cannot even break even on keeping chickens and so they will never even attempt it. Never attempting something doesn't prove it cannot be done. Attempting it and truly changing how one operates, trying what others have done to keep costs low, etc. is a true attempt. Trust me on this...I'm extremely poor. If it could not be done without going in the hole, I'd never even attempt it. It can. Take away all the made up costs of labor, depreciating buildings, and such...unless you want to factor in the profits of having a healthier life and avoiding high medical costs, gym fees for exercise, medicines not bought, etc, and exercising while choring for chickens and consuming healthier foods. That's what it all comes down to, really, how much you want to add on to your "profit" or "loss" of keeping chickens. I choose not to factor in all the nitpicky things and see that I'm not buying as much chicken food as I am making people food and that's a profit.

 

[Our Roost]

If what you are doing is feeding your family at a low cost to yourself, then by all means, be blessed. That in itself is a profit. No arguement in how you manage it or if you manage money from it. My companion and I both live on a fixed income but its a very good one! My ambitions with chickens has grown from a mere hobby to customizing our own utility breed for both meat and eggs. We started with high volume egg producers from hatcheries. 5 each of 5 different breeds. The hybrids definitely outproduced the heritage breeds hands down. I dove into books, maagazines and aricles related to chickens and have conversed with many mentors picking my own brain as well as theirs. I hadnt realized how many chickens there was and how many different breeds there were. Not to mention how much tinkering that goes on to improve on them. Mr GJenson makes some good points. Its sometimes about your own ambitions and goals and the direction you yourself decide to take. Perspective is only valuable if you find it useful. Sometimes you have to choose your own path.

 

[Beekissed]

If what you are doing is feeding your family at a low cost to yourself, then by all means, be blessed. That in itself is a profit. No arguement in how you manage it or if you manage money from it. My companion and I both live on a fixed income but its a very good one! My ambitions with chickens has grown from a mere hobby to customizing our own utility breed for both meat and eggs. We started with high volume egg producers from hatcheries. 5 each of 5 different breeds. The hybrids definitely outproduced the heritage breeds hands down. I dove into books, maagazines and aricles related to chickens and have conversed with many mentors picking my own brain as well as theirs. I hadnt realized how many chickens there was and how many different breeds there were. Not to mention how much tinkering that goes on to improve on them. Mr GJenson makes some good points. Its sometimes about your own ambitions and goals and the direction you yourself decide to take. Perspective is only valuable if you find it useful. Sometimes you have to choose your own path.

That's what I'm doing now and what I've done in the past. I've also had a working flock of dual purpose breeds for many years hand runnin' in years past that yielded profit in egg sales, so not just for family use. I'd put all the money from sales in a green vase on the shelf and only draw from it for feed and chick orders...at the end of the year I'd have money left over. Not just a dab, but what I consider plenty...a hundred and change. I know that's not much to you hobbyists but to a single mother, that extra money comes in handy.

Not what you folks consider profit but even a dollar to the black is profit to me. Of course, all the eggs fed to family and meat from expired hens and extra roosters couldn't be calculated for costs, so if one is to nitpick on such things, there was extra profit to be found there as well. I would not be able to afford to buy the quality of meat and eggs I produced on my land, not at the prices they command now, so all of that is considered profitable.

I tried the hybrids once but they are so terminal, so quickly, that they yield little profit. Oft times they would die off the roost before I could even cull them for meat and that's operating at a loss. Hatchery BAs lay better and longer than any hybrid and I get to keep the meat when they are done. Same with WRs....Mr. Jensen's experience aside(he did mention different strains yield different results), I've found them to be the most feed thrifty of all breeds, while laying better than any other breed their size, even into winter months and for many years. I can't really speak for the heirloom strains of the WRs, my experience with them has been little but I've not been impressed.

 

[bmvf]

Quote:
Not what you folks consider profit but even a dollar to the black is profit to me. Of course, all the eggs fed to family and meat from expired hens and extra roosters couldn't be calculated for costs, so if one is to nitpick on such things, there was extra profit to be found there as well. I would not be able to afford to buy the quality of meat and eggs I produced on my land, not at the prices they command now, so all of that is considered profitable.

I like this part of your post and appreciate your position. I would use the term break even instead of making a profit. I feel that break even should include the actual cost for replacements and 'facilities' since they may have come out of pocket. I would worry about labor if I were in the egg business but it's a hobby for me.

Regarding my post from a few days ago, I need to break even or at least get close. Yes, there is a case to eating your own home grown food raised the way you want it raised but then rather than $2.50 eggs, maybe $4 eggs is what they are actually worth. In my case I need to find better ways to feed them cheaply. But I don't have the time. I am sure I put 270 hours in the past 3 weeks. It was just work, work, work. My chicken tractor that my NH's will use is about 2 hours from completion which will save me in feed.

As I work with my Dels and NH's, I also have the same thoughts as George. You can't raise a dual purpose bird that is efficient in laying eggs. Maybe I need to play around with cheaper feed for my layers, I dunno. My one problem is that I'm not into marketing eggs or trying to get people to buy them so I have no need for extra eggs. I should reduce my flock to enough birds that will provide for the family but also can fill the incubator when I want a hatch for butchering. The other option is to just buy some really efficient layers like Leghorns and CX's for meat.... but I'd rather breed my own birds.

 

[ronott1]

I like this part of your post and appreciate your position. I would use the term break even instead of making a profit. I feel that break even should include the actual cost for replacements and 'facilities' since they may have come out of pocket. I would worry about labor if I were in the egg business but it's a hobby for me.

Regarding my post from a few days ago, I need to break even or at least get close. Yes, there is a case to eating your own home grown food raised the way you want it raised but then rather than $2.50 eggs, maybe $4 eggs is what they are actually worth. In my case I need to find better ways to feed them cheaply. But I don't have the time. I am sure I put 270 hours in the past 3 weeks. It was just work, work, work. My chicken tractor that my NH's will use is about 2 hours from completion which will save me in feed.

As I work with my Dels and NH's, I also have the same thoughts as George. You can't raise a dual purpose bird that is efficient in laying eggs. Maybe I need to play around with cheaper feed for my layers, I dunno. My one problem is that I'm not into marketing eggs or trying to get people to buy them so I have no need for extra eggs. I should reduce my flock to enough birds that will provide for the family but also can fill the incubator when I want a hatch for butchering. The other option is to just buy some really efficient layers like Leghorns and CX's for meat.... but I'd rather breed my own birds.

There are dual purpose meat and dual purpose egg layers. Dual purpose egg layers will have fast growing and fairly large cockerels. The pullets will be much smaller and have fairly good feed conversion.

Dual purpose meat will have hens that grow fast and get fairly large. They will still lay eggs well but will not have good feed conversion. An example of dual purpose meat is the White Bresse. I used to have them and they just about broke the feed budget! They are excellent laying hens though.

To bring this back to George's post, you can change the size and egg laying ability to some extent but you still have to work within the breed. It would make little sense to try to turn dual purpose egg layers into dual purpose meat chickens. It would also mess a lot of things up.

 

[DesertChic]

There are dual purpose meat and dual purpose egg layers. Dual purpose egg layers will have fast growing and fairly large cockerels. The pullets will be much smaller and have fairly good feed conversion.

Dual purpose meat will have hens that grow fast and get fairly large. They will still lay eggs well but will not have good feed conversion. An example of dual purpose meat is the White Bresse. I used to have them and they just about broke the feed budget! They are excellent laying hens though.

To bring this back to George's post, you can change the size and egg laying ability to some extent but you still have to work within the breed. It would make little sense to try to turn dual purpose egg layers into dual purpose meat chickens. It would also mess a lot of things up.

I love reading these discussions because they always get the wheels of my brain turning. I've accepted the fact that one bird...and I mean literally one bird...cannot be the all encompassing solution to good meat + egg production, but I wonder if you could cover both needs within a single breed? My NN Turkens have finally come of the age for butchering of the unwanted cockerels, and the pullets are fast approaching POL. After reading a suggestion by @gjensen a few months back I actually created a visual graph of their growth rates instead of simply relying on my charts, and I've noticed one interesting detail...there appear to be two specific groups within my flock. Both groups are comprised of pullets and cockerel(s), but one group is much, much heavier than the other, consumes more food, and all of the birds simply feel much meatier. These are my meat breeders. The second group is lighter in weight, more active, and more efficient with their feed. I'm anxiously waiting to see if this group proves a better choice for egg laying. It's something I hope to track and maybe experiment with in the future.

 

[ronott1]

I love reading these discussions because they always get the wheels of my brain turning. I've accepted the fact that one bird...and I mean literally one bird...cannot be the all encompassing solution to good meat + egg production, but I wonder if you could cover both needs within a single breed? My NN Turkens have finally come of the age for butchering of the unwanted cockerels, and the pullets are fast approaching POL. After reading a suggestion by @gjensen a few months back I actually created a visual graph of their growth rates instead of simply relying on my charts, and I've noticed one interesting detail...there appear to be two specific groups within my flock. Both groups are comprised of pullets and cockerel(s), but one group is much, much heavier than the other, consumes more food, and all of the birds simply feel much meatier. These are my meat breeders. The second group is lighter in weight, more active, and more efficient with their feed. I'm anxiously waiting to see if this group proves a better choice for egg laying. It's something I hope to track and maybe experiment with in the future.

That is very good to read about!

Keep us updated on what you find.