BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[dfr1973]

No. Let me be more frank, and as a result more clear. "Build the barn before you paint it" is a mis used, over used, catch all phrase used, by those that do not know an better. It is better used and applied by those that raise dominant white or black birds. Then there is no confusion, and it could actually apply. So the problem is as much in it's use as it is in it's interpretation.
Your explanation is a good attempt at a middle ground, but explains again, why the phrase is not helpful . . . hinting at the complexities that can be involved in breeding some colors. We can neglect it if we want to, but it is be careful of what we ask for. For those that do not prefer to be concerned with color should work with birds that have none. That solves it all. LOL.

It is foolish to spend years to build type, and then take years re building it to get the color right.

Birds are neither houses nor barns. We are also not painters, and there is no paint thinner to clean up mistakes. The two go together as we move along, and the priorities and emphasis does shift as the birds change.

It is a harmful phrase, and not a helpful phrase.

And I mean this in all seriousness to newcomers. Color doe not lay eggs, or put flesh on a frame. Anyone not interested in the distractions, and are concerned with utility alone . . . forget the fancy varieties which are meant to be fancy . . .instead get a simple color variety.
The more characteristics to select for, the longer it takes to make progress. It also requires years to master the art of breeding some colors. Many can repeat much to do with one, but putting it into practice is another matter all together.
Now, to that same newcomer, I am not saying to avoid a color that strikes your fancy. By all means, learn to master the art of breeding that color. There is a lot of joy and pleasure in learning to breed a color. I am learning to breed one of the most difficult colors. The color I speak of is not a difficult color pattern to achieve, but it is extraordinarily difficult to perfect. But I love this color, and I enjoy this challenge.

The more challenging colors are a life time's work, and the learning them never ends.

The "fancy" varieties', by nature, will never ever set production records. They can certainly be productive however. And when they are, and their type is good . . . . the color is right, the vigor and health is high, they hatch like popcorn, and the flock is uniform . . . they become a remarkable achievement. Something to be proud of and admire.
A life time's work and something worth passing down, like passing a torch.

That is certainly more clear - not really any room left for misunderstanding. I shall strike that saying from my list. If I were to do a solid-colored chicken, it would be the buff Wyandotte, which is harder because there are fewer of them. I have been doing some preliminary looking around ... they are almost as scarce as hen's teeth. Of course, the variety of Wyandottes I think the absolute prettiest is the silver-penciled. Maybe in a decade or two, after I have my gold-laceds to where I am happy with them.

The bold portion of your quoted post manages to articulate my ultimate goal (better than I seem to be able to articulate).

 

[dfr1973]

I am going to give you an opinion.

Good Mahogany color does not contrast well with black.

I concur, after reading and thinking. My black phase BLRs from Luanne have the gold seeping through ("brassiness") that makes me smile, and Luanne frustrated. One of the cockerels doesn't have it, and on overcast days like today he looks just plain black. It's when sunlight strikes the beetle-green sheen black lacing that it becomes obvious. If the color puts a smile on someone's face in the family, then go for it. If you're willing to be patient, I would still recommend getting from Luanne as she has been selecting for good body size and IMO they'd make better capons and poulards. Disclaimer here is that my Cackle Wyandottes are all of 7 weeks old so far, while I have walked alongside Luanne's adult Wyandotte roosters (tanks!).

 

[gjensen]

That is certainly more clear - not really any room left for misunderstanding. I shall strike that saying from my list. If I were to do a solid-colored chicken, it would be the buff Wyandotte, which is harder because there are fewer of them. I have been doing some preliminary looking around ... they are almost as scarce as hen's teeth. Of course, the variety of Wyandottes I think the absolute prettiest is the silver-penciled. Maybe in a decade or two, after I have my gold-laceds to where I am happy with them.

The bold portion of your quoted post manages to articulate my ultimate goal (better than I seem to be able to articulate).

That (the last point) is what I want. I want it all right.

I have been working on correcting the color on my breed of choice. I am tickled with this year's pullets up to this point. If I can get these right, and it is still not certain that I can, while keeping the character that they have now . . . . they will be something.

But, this is a for the long haul project. Time will tell, but it will take a lot of time.

I have my fingers crossed for two decent cockerels from this spring's hatch.

The added challenge makes it all more interesting.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I wanted to post an update on my learning curve with the Blue Laced Red Wyandottes. This spring I hatched from 2 pairs. The "Blue" couple featured a pullet that had already come into lay at purchase time, and she lays ~ 6 large eggs/week so far, with one brief broody break. It took 2 months, (and 2 "fluff trimmings,") before the "Blues" produced any fertile eggs. I put 36 eggs in the incubator, and got 18 chicks, 3 culled so far. The "Red" couple included a pullet that took 6 weeks to come into lay, and she lays ~4 or 5 medium eggs/week when she is not broody. She is broody for the second time since March. I put 37 "Red" eggs into the incubator and got 27 chicks, 4 culled so far. I do not know the ages of any of the four breeders, so the delays could have been because birds were just immature. After subtracting culls, I got 24 chicks before the pullets went broody, now ranging from 12 to 7 weeks in age. When the pullets returned to lay, the last 14 chicks hatched over 3 weeks and are under a Dorking hen that went broody at the perfect time for me.

A quick and dirty Google search or 2 later, I have learned there are a handful of genes that affect feather growth rate, most of which are sex-linked; some of which also affect comb and wattle growth, and maturation rate as well. This explains why I had so much trouble sexing my chicks according to comb growth. I had sorted, rearranged and re-sorted those poor chicks and just got more confused every time I looked at them. Two nights ago, I re-sorted chicks, calling the ones with thicker leg bones and coarser skulls, cockerels; and the more refined chicks, pullets. By golly, I think I finally got them "organized" properly. Now it is clear that both pens have a variety of feathering rates, but the cockerels are much more affected than the pullets. This coming weekend I will cull those that feel "light" or like they are just feathers and bones. I will also cull anything with skin showing on its back, and anything over 10 weeks without tail feathers. I noticed one cockerel with a split breast as well as a naked back and one exceptionally belligerent cockerel; they are slated for the cull as well. I will note which parents produced those. Otherwise, I will see how many decently earlier-maturing birds of each family I've got, and evaluate them for type, size, color and lacing at about 6 months of age.

I do want to maintain their good deep mahogany coloring, and am not seeing lighter/orange birds. However, I don't know how to keep or improve lacing and I have a book on its way to me that should help with that. I could only find a couple of people who vaguely referred to slow feathering as supposedly better for lacing (how, exactly?) and type (don't see the connection there, either.)

After the weather cools off, I will hatch the "Green" and "Yellow" batches.
Just my two verbose cents' worth,
Angela

 

[gjensen]

I wanted to post an update on my learning curve with the Blue Laced Red Wyandottes. This spring I hatched from 2 pairs. The "Blue" couple featured a pullet that had already come into lay at purchase time, and she lays ~ 6 large eggs/week so far, with one brief broody break. It took 2 months, (and 2 "fluff trimmings,") before the "Blues" produced any fertile eggs. I put 36 eggs in the incubator, and got 18 chicks, 3 culled so far. The "Red" couple included a pullet that took 6 weeks to come into lay, and she lays ~4 or 5 medium eggs/week when she is not broody. She is broody for the second time since March. I put 37 "Red" eggs into the incubator and got 27 chicks, 4 culled so far. I do not know the ages of any of the four breeders, so the delays could have been because birds were just immature. After subtracting culls, I got 24 chicks before the pullets went broody, now ranging from 12 to 7 weeks in age. When the pullets returned to lay, the last 14 chicks hatched over 3 weeks and are under a Dorking hen that went broody at the perfect time for me.

A quick and dirty Google search or 2 later, I have learned there are a handful of genes that affect feather growth rate, most of which are sex-linked; some of which also affect comb and wattle growth, and maturation rate as well. This explains why I had so much trouble sexing my chicks according to comb growth. I had sorted, rearranged and re-sorted those poor chicks and just got more confused every time I looked at them. Two nights ago, I re-sorted chicks, calling the ones with thicker leg bones and coarser skulls, cockerels; and the more refined chicks, pullets. By golly, I think I finally got them "organized" properly. Now it is clear that both pens have a variety of feathering rates, but the cockerels are much more affected than the pullets. This coming weekend I will cull those that feel "light" or like they are just feathers and bones. I will also cull anything with skin showing on its back, and anything over 10 weeks without tail feathers. I noticed one cockerel with a split breast as well as a naked back and one exceptionally belligerent cockerel; they are slated for the cull as well. I will note which parents produced those. Otherwise, I will see how many decently earlier-maturing birds of each family I've got, and evaluate them for type, size, color and lacing at about 6 months of age.

I do want to maintain their good deep mahogany coloring, and am not seeing lighter/orange birds. However, I don't know how to keep or improve lacing and I have a book on its way to me that should help with that. I could only find a couple of people who vaguely referred to slow feathering as supposedly better for lacing (how, exactly?) and type (don't see the connection there, either.)

After the weather cools off, I will hatch the "Green" and "Yellow" batches.
Just my two verbose cents' worth,
Angela

I enjoyed reading the update. I enjoy discussions that involve the doing.

If you can, track your bird's laying over a laying cycle. It is helpful to know, and helpful to hear. I am unable to process the per week numbers because our birds can be variable over a year. I (we) just write it down on a calendar per pen. This gives me an average. As the season moves on, I try to separate myself from those that hurt the average, but they are averaged in. As a result, when discussing it, I tend to give a range for an average.
My Catalana pullets average 220-240 in their pullet year. With the lowest producers removed the average is closer to the 240 range. Some individuals hit higher marks, but they are the exception. My hens are in the range of 200. All of this without lights.

I have a little postal scale for the young birds. I like to know what their typical is, and monitor it from there. Whenever I go through them, I pull out the scale. I do not trust feeling my way. I am pretty good at it, I guess, but there are always marginal birds that I am not certain about. Occasionally one surprises me.
Whoever is heaviest at 8wks will likely be at 12 wks.

Yes. There are a number of genes that effect the rate of feather growth. That is why I mentioned in out conversation that I would like to know (if it was me) if it was a sex linked recessive etc.

I would be interested in hearing whether or not some believe rate of feather growth has an effect on lacing. I know little of these varieties, and would be interested in hearing more.

Slow feathering and type? No. Absolutely not. Only a possible correlation between body type and rate of growth in general.

Pictures and numbers would be nice.

I will try to get a few pictures. I am bad about taking them. I get a few taken every year. I like to look at last years pictures.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I enjoyed reading the update. I enjoy discussions that involve the doing...
If you can, track your bird's laying over a laying cycle. It is helpful to know, and helpful to hear...
I have a little postal scale for the young birds... Whenever I go through them, I pull out the scale. I do not trust feeling my way... Whoever is heaviest at 8wks will likely be at 12 wks...
I would be interested in hearing whether or not some believe rate of feather growth has an effect on lacing... Pictures and numbers would be nice...

Thank you.

Although selecting for earlier maturity is a top priority, one of my lesser goals is to get this flock up to large/extra-large eggs and >200 eggs per unlighted pullet year with quick molts. The early-laying pullet was not reliable until I added lights, and I "broke" her broody spell within a week. The other pullet is much more determined to set. I figured I had enough to work on addressing egg size amongst the daughters this year, watching their mothers' molt and return to lay this autumn. I will work on documenting egg output this fall.

I have a diet/food scale for smaller chicks and a postal scale for the juveniles and adults. I started out weighing chicks, and sorting by comb/wattle growth into pens receiving 20% or 30% protein feed. I think I had quite a few chicks on the "wrong" feed for different amounts of time, plus the weather has changed dramatically since I started bringing chicks outside, and there are so many age groups, I did not think my exact weights were very helpful. I will still cull the very slow featherers and of course any sickly, ill-dispositioned, or structurally abnormal chicks. I do still think I can differentiate between the chicks prone to add muscling earlier and those prone to add muscle later. Since I don't know how to select for good lacing yet, I am growing out all the questionable chicks.

I will share whatever I learn about lacing, and see if I can get good pictures with my phone and post them here.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[gjensen]

Thank you.

Although selecting for earlier maturity is a top priority, one of my lesser goals is to get this flock up to large/extra-large eggs and >200 eggs per unlighted pullet year with quick molts. The early-laying pullet was not reliable until I added lights, and I "broke" her broody spell within a week. The other pullet is much more determined to set. I figured I had enough to work on addressing egg size amongst the daughters this year, watching their mothers' molt and return to lay this autumn. I will work on documenting egg output this fall.

I have a diet/food scale for smaller chicks and a postal scale for the juveniles and adults. I started out weighing chicks, and sorting by comb/wattle growth into pens receiving 20% or 30% protein feed. I think I had quite a few chicks on the "wrong" feed for different amounts of time, plus the weather has changed dramatically since I started bringing chicks outside, and there are so many age groups, I did not think my exact weights were very helpful. I will still cull the very slow featherers and of course any sickly, ill-dispositioned, or structurally abnormal chicks. I do still think I can differentiate between the chicks prone to add muscling earlier and those prone to add muscle later. Since I don't know how to select for good lacing yet, I am growing out all the questionable chicks.

I will share whatever I learn about lacing, and see if I can get good pictures with my phone and post them here.

Best wishes,
Angela

I doubt that you would ever get 200 extra large eggs from them, unless you had a complete disregard for their color. If they were in the 160 large egg range, then they would be appropriate for what they are. I would be pleased and work to maintain it. I would not want them any less though.
It is still helpful for discussion to have functional numbers.

My Catalanas are a different bird, and they were great layers when I picked them up. I am not pushing this point either. Not now. I have too much too concern myself with. I intend to, but not at this point.

We cannot possibly emphasize every point every year. All we can do is get to know them, decide what thy need the most, and what we want the most.

You could certainly push for earlier weights while being faithful to the color. It is too easy not to do.. Not to mention that reasonable pol pullets help keep the numbers up.

You are right. You can only compare within batches. Growing conditions do vary between batches and the numbers can be misleading. I only compare hatch mates to hatch mates for this reason.

It is always easiest to identify the birds on the bottom.

 

[dfr1973]

I would be interested in hearing whether or not some believe rate of feather growth has an effect on lacing. I know little of these varieties, and would be interested in hearing more.

Since I don't know how to select for good lacing yet, I am growing out all the questionable chicks.

I will share whatever I learn about lacing, and see if I can get good pictures with my phone and post them here.

Best wishes,
Angela

What I have found *so far* is that lacing is done with 3 genes, Co for Colombian, Ml for Melanistic, and Pg for Pigment pattern, and the bird needs to be homogenous for all three (over wild-type gene). There is a chart at this page that I have bookmarked. It also has some illustrations for type. What I have read is that the slow/fast feathering affects quality of barring, but barring is not lacing. I am still researching, just as you are, Angela.

 

[Arielle]

Last night we've had a huge storm roll through with maybe 70+ mph winds. In 2011 Hurricane Irene rolled through and in 2012 the eye of a weakened Hurricane Sandy passed within miles of the farm. So I've seen wind, but not like last night. A roof of one of my sheds blew 300 yards to the north until it hit a tree line. I have an empty calf hutch that blew the same way but is out of sight. My shed for the NH's flipped but somehow the nests stayed laying on blocks on the ground with the broody hen still inside. Her eggs are now wet and dirty. The wind also caught the chicken tractor with my 5 week old NH chicks and killed 4 of 17. There was some hail and with the driving rain I'm surprised more didn't die. I thought the tractor was protected from the storm by my barn but the wind somehow whipped the other way for apparently a brief moment and caught the tractor. Then there's the tractor for my Dels that stayed put....even with the roof of that shed flying over it en route to it's final destination.

It all comes back to my last post. What type of housing fits my management style and will work. After last night I think it's a stable structure that will work best

Glad the damage wasnt worse for you.

I have shifted to making 10 x 10 or 8x8 buildings made to code with the possiiblity of adding on to double each house . I do not have flat grassland here. THe ground is sloped, very rough with rocks and roots and lots of tree stumps these days. lol THese structures held up to feet and feet of snow this winter. How much wind they can withstand has yet to be tested but we tend to build like the end of the world is coming. lol We didnt loose any barns this winter unlike so many here in New England because of how we plan ahead. One smalll building did go down as we didnt need it long term so didnt spend precious time clearing off the snow so the height of the snow became rather impressive. THen one morning it was down. So NO tractors here . . . just wont work.

THe buckeyes are respecting the 4 foot fence to stay out of the gardens and uitlize other area of the woods to look for food and run around . THey are locked up at night.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: George-- I love tha t you speak up!! I learned to shut up a while ago on a certain thread as my breeding thought did not fit. Having SPeckled Sussex and BLack Copper Marans requires a focus on many traits at the same time. Once genes are gone out of a pool, they cannot be recovered with out reaching to another source.

My Ss have too much white in the wings and tail HOWEVER, a male was hatched that had the right coloring so the genes were in there. Having lost a few too many SS to a raccoon I dont expect to be able to get another well colored male ( or female) but it might take hatching a few too many chicks to see if the genes are still in the population.