BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

gjensen, I am not thinking negatively nor did I miss the point. In fact I agree with most of your concept. Utility breeding has a defined need for the homesteader. If you are striving for a good egg layer and a great tasty meat bird that also is good in all kinds of climates that has great immunity to disease and is robust then you just set your own S.O.P. for your goals and wants along with your needs. You have to create that population before you can move it forward. Continuous improvement is definitely moving the product, population, and production in the right direction. I'm following your concept but with a lot smaller numbers. By the way, I hatched out 28 crossbreed birds this spring. I am only in the creation mode and the selection has yet to begin.

Utility requires vigor and more depth and numbers than a show string would. That is where everyone is missing the point. They are thinking short term, and based on what they have read from show folks.

A production flock requires real depth if they are going to be productive into a decade and more. It is not just improvement, but depth.

Bee complains about her show bird's hatchability and productivity, not realizing that much of it is due to small flocks bred tight for long periods. Not all, but the potential is revealed in an outcross and invigorated. There is always some improvement even after the initial spike in vigor.

Starting out like you are doing, there is no reason to hatch super large batches. When you cross two breeds that are consistent in type and performance on each side, the offspring (the results) will be consistent. You will only see variability as much as the parents are variable. A batch like you hatched is appropriate.
Now I understand that you intend another cross again, and the same principle would apply. The situation changes once you start breeding along a line. At that point you will need to maintain functional depth, and hatch enough qty. to maintain that functional depth. That depth includes variability (which is needed as they are tightened up, and that variability is more than visible), and vigor. Vigor has to be maintained, and that lesson is and will be learned the hard way. It only takes about five years before it starts to matter.

Now this brings us to outcrosses and breed crosses. This can be done perpetually, but it is not breeding with a goal. It is managing a production flock. Not creating one. It can be done for different reasons initially, but at some point you are working with what you have. You are not want to mess up what you have by bringing something new in all of the time. Outcrossing is a lot like starting over. Starting over repeatedly is no way to make progress. Trust me. I have started over one too many times.

So to conclude, at some point you are breeding along a line. You cannot hatch a lot in a season. No problem. Hatch according to small families per season. Allow more families and more males be your depth. The less hens we keep, the more males we need for depth.
If you can only hatch 32, only hatch 32, but only replace 4. Not 16. Replace a family of 4 hens, but not more. You will go backwards otherwise. Only replace a small family per cycle, and work along like that.

Hatching 28 and replacing 14 when past the cross breeding stage is not going to last long, and they will certainly remain average. Average is in the middle. The 6s are in the top percentile and 6s only produce 6s in a percentage. 6s do not produce all 6s LOL.

 

[collie1470]

I have a question. When a man and women engage in wedlock, the female relinquishes her maiden name and their offspring children and herself take on the last name of the male parent. This name will carry on as long as an offspring male transfers it to his offspring or sibling males.  I occasionally read about newly created bird breeds developed and now available in limited quantities. They have coined a new name. Shouldn't the male parent bird breed name carry on with the new strain? 

breed and a family name aren't the same...

 

[collie1470]

And the breed name of one parent can't just be directly carried on, because the offspring are no longer that breed, as they are mixed. You could call them a *breed name here* mix, or cross. But not that specific breed, unless you plan to purposely misrepresent the animals.

 

[collie1470]

Just like dogs. Breed a male german shepherd to a husky, and the puppies are mixes, not shepherds.

 

[Beer can]

What do you all think of this, some snippets not the whole article, are these things to look for when breeding for better productivity in you opinion?


Are Your Birds Productive?
By Don Schrider
American Livestock Breeds Conservancy

Other points to remember when selecting for rate of growth: Appetite equals fast growth. Birds with wide feathers grow at a faster rate than birds with narrow feathers. Birds with narrow feathers are apt to be slow to grow back-feathers during the first 6 weeks of life. Extremely slow or excessively fast maturing chicks tend to suffer higher mortality than chicks, which grow at a "normal" rate.

So what can you do to select and improve your flock for better production? Try these ideas: Monroe Babcock (creator of the Babcock B2000 commercial layer), and others, recommended using hens for breeding that lay before 10 am. He noted that these birds tend to lay more eggs and were generally healthier and longer lived. Saving eggs for incubation that were layed before 10 am (even if you only save eggs on the weekend for setting) can improve your flock’s egg production over time

Birds that are fast in molting tend to lay better - band fast moulting hens. Hens that drop all of their feathers at once tend to be out of production for less time. Keep track of this trait and encourage it in your flock. Birds that molt early are usually the poorest layers. Poor layers tend to stop laying in July and take a long time to molt. In most birds the feathers during molt are usually shed in the following order - head, neck, breast, body, wings and tail (in some individuals a few tail feathers may drop before the wing feathers). It takes 6 weeks for a wing feather to grow in either poor or good producers, but the good producer grows more feathers at a time thereby completing the molt faster. First year hens that lay 25 or more eggs during August and March (in the year following that in which they were hatched) tend to be better producers.

Here's the link to the article;
http://nationaljerseygiantclub.com/media/Document_12.pdf

 

[collie1470]

well, that's extremely interesting.

What do you all think of this, some snippets not the whole article, are these things to look for when breeding for better productivity in you opinion?


Are Your Birds Productive?
By Don Schrider
American Livestock Breeds Conservancy

Other points to remember when selecting for rate of growth: Appetite equals fast growth. Birds with wide feathers grow at a faster rate than birds with narrow feathers. Birds with narrow feathers are apt to be slow to grow back-feathers during the first 6 weeks of life. Extremely slow or excessively fast maturing chicks tend to suffer higher mortality than chicks, which grow at a "normal" rate.

So what can you do to select and improve your flock for better production? Try these ideas: Monroe Babcock (creator of the Babcock B2000 commercial layer), and others, recommended using hens for breeding that lay before 10 am. He noted that these birds tend to lay more eggs and were generally healthier and longer lived. Saving eggs for incubation that were layed before 10 am (even if you only save eggs on the weekend for setting) can improve your flock’s egg production over time

Birds that are fast in molting tend to lay better - band fast moulting hens. Hens that drop all of their feathers at once tend to be out of production for less time. Keep track of this trait and encourage it in your flock. Birds that molt early are usually the poorest layers. Poor layers tend to stop laying in July and take a long time to molt. In most birds the feathers during molt are usually shed in the following order - head, neck, breast, body, wings and tail (in some individuals a few tail feathers may drop before the wing feathers). It takes 6 weeks for a wing feather to grow in either poor or good producers, but the good producer grows more feathers at a time thereby completing the molt faster. First year hens that lay 25 or more eggs during August and March (in the year following that in which they were hatched) tend to be better producers.

Here's the link to the article; 
http://nationaljerseygiantclub.com/media/Document_12.pdf

 

[bnjrob]

What do you all think of this, some snippets not the whole article, are these things to look for when breeding for better productivity in you opinion?


Are Your Birds Productive?
By Don Schrider
American Livestock Breeds Conservancy

Other points to remember when selecting for rate of growth: Appetite equals fast growth. Birds with wide feathers grow at a faster rate than birds with narrow feathers. Birds with narrow feathers are apt to be slow to grow back-feathers during the first 6 weeks of life. Extremely slow or excessively fast maturing chicks tend to suffer higher mortality than chicks, which grow at a "normal" rate.

So what can you do to select and improve your flock for better production? Try these ideas: Monroe Babcock (creator of the Babcock B2000 commercial layer), and others, recommended using hens for breeding that lay before 10 am. He noted that these birds tend to lay more eggs and were generally healthier and longer lived. Saving eggs for incubation that were layed before 10 am (even if you only save eggs on the weekend for setting) can improve your flock’s egg production over time

Birds that are fast in molting tend to lay better - band fast moulting hens. Hens that drop all of their feathers at once tend to be out of production for less time. Keep track of this trait and encourage it in your flock. Birds that molt early are usually the poorest layers. Poor layers tend to stop laying in July and take a long time to molt. In most birds the feathers during molt are usually shed in the following order - head, neck, breast, body, wings and tail (in some individuals a few tail feathers may drop before the wing feathers). It takes 6 weeks for a wing feather to grow in either poor or good producers, but the good producer grows more feathers at a time thereby completing the molt faster. First year hens that lay 25 or more eggs during August and March (in the year following that in which they were hatched) tend to be better producers.

Here's the link to the article;
http://nationaljerseygiantclub.com/media/Document_12.pdf

I have seen the wide feather/faster growing opinion before. Thus far, I have not noticed this in my flock since my birds are generally similar in feather size.

Appetite - well, I think there is more to it than that blanket statement. True enough, if a bird doesn't eat, then it won't grow as fast as a bird that does eat. You see that with birds that bullied away from food and water, and they wind up smaller. You also have to look at other factors for appetite. This past week, we're up to 100+ degrees. The amount of food the birds are eating has dropped dramatically compared to just a week ago. They eat less when it's hot, which is why I prefer to hatch earlier in the year when I can, because the chicks will eat more when it's cooler and are more apt to reach a better size than the ones that hatch when it's hot and they don't want to eat because of the heat. But I don't know that you can really evaluate one bird's appetite compared to another bird's appetite unless you give them all a measured amount and record which bird eats how much feed. In which case you need laboratory conditions and to separate birds and not allow them to eat unless they are being monitored. Not really very practical.

As far as the opinion of faster molters being better layers - that also depends on what your definition of *better layer* is. Are you basing the opinion of *better layer* on a hen that lays every day or a hen that lays a certain number of eggs in a year? You can have a hen that is lays every day but only does it for 6 months of the year, the rest of the time the hen doesn't lay, while you have a hen that lays every couple of days but lays 9 months out of the year or more *Better* is a pretty subjective term.

Beyond the *better layer* term, a bird that molts fast & looks naked because it drops so many feathers at once, is likely to lay more eggs in a year's time, simply because they will not spend months and months molting and trying to replace feathers for such a long time period - so they theoretically should start laying again more quickly before the daylight hours decrease their laying. In my breed, pretty much everyone that I've discussed this with, regardless of the strain they obtained, all say that their birds are somewhat slow to molt. So I seriously doubt that any of us breeding them will have very good lucky getting many fast molters into our flocks. But our breed is an old fashioned breed and not meant to rival today's modern birds either.

Eggs before 10 am - I've heard this theory before also and am not impressed with that theory. The cycle of egg formation and laying causes the egg to be laid later and later in the day. The same hen that lays at 8 a.m. one morning is eventually going to cycle to laying in the afternoon. Not sure what the person was thinking that came up with that theory. So many times people don't realize all the variables in a situation, so they automatically equate one thing being the result of something else, when in reality, they are completely wrong. I think that is what happened with the 10 am egg laying and productivity business is.

A lot of the things that are written about poultry have to be evaluated in each person's flock and with each situation. There are just way too many variables in every flock, and one tiny variable can change things. When I read things like this article, I look at what I believe to be true, and what I've seen in my flock. And if there is something that looks like it might be helpful, then I incorporate it into my routine and see how it works. Some things, like anecdotes about chickens from 100+ years ago, actually do work. Other things don't. I can't say that what the article says is wrong, only that it may work for some flocks, or in certain situations, and each of us has to figure out which of these things are true in each of our flocks.

 

[gjensen]

What do you all think of this, some snippets not the whole article, are these things to look for when breeding for better productivity in you opinion?


Are Your Birds Productive?
By Don Schrider
American Livestock Breeds Conservancy

Other points to remember when selecting for rate of growth: Appetite equals fast growth. Birds with wide feathers grow at a faster rate than birds with narrow feathers. Birds with narrow feathers are apt to be slow to grow back-feathers during the first 6 weeks of life. Extremely slow or excessively fast maturing chicks tend to suffer higher mortality than chicks, which grow at a "normal" rate.

So what can you do to select and improve your flock for better production? Try these ideas: Monroe Babcock (creator of the Babcock B2000 commercial layer), and others, recommended using hens for breeding that lay before 10 am. He noted that these birds tend to lay more eggs and were generally healthier and longer lived. Saving eggs for incubation that were layed before 10 am (even if you only save eggs on the weekend for setting) can improve your flock’s egg production over time

Birds that are fast in molting tend to lay better - band fast moulting hens. Hens that drop all of their feathers at once tend to be out of production for less time. Keep track of this trait and encourage it in your flock. Birds that molt early are usually the poorest layers. Poor layers tend to stop laying in July and take a long time to molt. In most birds the feathers during molt are usually shed in the following order - head, neck, breast, body, wings and tail (in some individuals a few tail feathers may drop before the wing feathers). It takes 6 weeks for a wing feather to grow in either poor or good producers, but the good producer grows more feathers at a time thereby completing the molt faster. First year hens that lay 25 or more eggs during August and March (in the year following that in which they were hatched) tend to be better producers.

Here's the link to the article;
http://nationaljerseygiantclub.com/media/Document_12.pdf

On the first point . . . I do not know. Maybe, but maybe not. I need to improve the width of feather with my Catalanas. My NHs have much better feather width and quality. My Catalanas feather in and develop much faster than my NHs even though my NHs are very fast to feather in. The livability on my Catalanas is excellent. Out of 120 this year, I lost none.
So maybe there is a correlation overall (who has done such a study recently?), but not necessarily. I suspect when evaluating sub standard stock and quality stock, you would see a correlation, but based on neglect of selection over all.
And on the other hand, it is not difficult to imagine that quality of feather has some impact on the initial development of a bird.

On the laying hen, and the timing of the egg . . . it is more complicated than that. Another could be, but not necessarily. A hen on a 25 hour cycle is going to lay later each day until the process starts over, and after a rest. These intervals are what gives her, her lay rate. The length of rest, the cycle, and the seasons. Some are seasonal.

Rate of molt . . . .depends on how we are judging this layer. As it relates to vigor, maybe . . .But . . . the lay rate is another matter altogether and is not related to the molt genetically. What makes a hen a good layer is a collection of characteristics, and one of which is her length of molt. The molt has a positive (or negative) impact on her length of lay, not her rate of lay. The length of lay is relevant to how productive she is. The molt certainly matters as point of lay does (which can be affected by his first point). For a pullet to come into lay early, molt late (as a hen), and then molt fast . . . this pullet can have as much as 3-4 months of laying over a sub standard hen. This added length of the laying cycle can mean many more eggs. A reason I have no regard for "my hen laid this many eggs this week or month". The silly statement says nothing at all concerning the ability of a hen.
Now to his credit, he did say that they TEND to lay better. This qualification is helpful. The emphasis on the molt is helpful. A much neglected, but easy to identify point. It bothers me how neglected it is though so elementary. So, by all means identify your hens concerning not just how long they molt, but when. The bird coming into molt later is to be preferred all else being equal. For one she has a longer laying cycle among some other possibilities.

The problems with these notions is that though there is some truth in all of them, none of them tell the whole story. A good healthy strong laying hen is a compilation of characteristics. She is a sum of her parts, and a complete bird. To properly evaluate her is to evaluate all of her. Not part of her.

And some of these old adages can be misunderstood. For example the 9:30 am layer will not lay at that time tomorrow or the next day. She will likely lay an hour later than she did the day before. So what does that mean when we see her lay at 11? Nothing at all. Good or bad. Now did Monroe identify a tendency? I believe he did. But we should be cautious about how we apply it.

The best way to select is always the most direct way. Concerning eggs, that is counting and weighing eggs. Very simple, and most effective.The proof in the pudding. For those that can, trap nests are ideal.

We should process, consider, and store away all of these things. As we move along, we learn more. We should use all that we know to identify our most productive birds as we move through the seasons. We should never depend on pet notions, because they never tell the whole story. Evaluate the pullets over the ENTIRE laying cycle. The best pullets are over all the best hens.

 

[Our Roost]

gjensen, depth is very important and thank you for commenting on this subject matter of breeding. Yes I do plan to crossbreed another breed into this mix after my initial outcross is complete. The steps getting there takes time and yes I am working with a smaller batch. If I'm not happy with the expected results and data from my initial outcross then I bail on the project. Why waste time and money on a false economy! But, if I do reach that level of success, numbers will become more important for sure. I will definitely need some depth to retain that in which I have been striving for in this utility strain. Great perspective!

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Pursuant to my earlier posts regarding feathering rate, I have just finished An Introduction to Form and Feathering of the Domestic Fowl by Brian Reeder. On page 43 he writes, "The slow feathering gene in exhibition lines seems to have a positive effect on some of the pattern gene expressions, (ie. lacing, etc.)"..."Personally, I find the gene nearly useless for hobby breeding and the only instances where I would want the gene is if my focus were on one of the patterned varieties where (it) is assumed to enhanced feather markings. It is often stated in the hobby that slow-feathered birds mature to a larger size...However I have been able to produce birds of very large size that did not carry slow feathering." He offers no hypothesis as to how slow feathering is supposed to improve lacing. He does later state that "bunny" tails in Wyandottes, and the pitiful excuses seen in show-strain Barred Rock tails are due to choosing for short feathers. He also later writes that narrow feathers are dominant to wider feathers, and the wider "feathers tend to show more substance and durability." page 51. He also believes the degree of fluffiness is amenable to selection. page 56.

To reiterate, at no point in this book did I find any explanation of why slower feather growth should improve lacing.
On to the next book.
Angela