BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[JRNash]

@Antfarm I disagree with you " not being a breeder " while you may not have the facilities or resources,you are STILL trying to breed to a type that has the attributes you desire. We all place OUR mark upon the birds we raise and breed. And as a side note,geneticists with the broiler industry have published scholarly works that point out that we have in no way reached the limits and potential of natural growth in the chicken. Im wanting a better dual purpose bird that fits with my local conditions. I have an idea in my mind of the way I want the bird to look. I look at other breeds and I catch glimpses of the image I have in my mind.

 

[JRNash]

I see parts of it in the Chanteclers being raised by hellbender,and in Daves La Bresse. Two breeds,that I don't currently have. I recently hatched an asil. The intention is to puti t over my DC. It may slow down the egg production. For me ,thats not a problem.

 

[JRNash]

I'm in the process of getting two dozen hatching eggs from a breeder of copper marans. They are beutiful birds that they breed to the french SOP and show,winning ribbons for not only the dark eggs but the birds too. The seller would probably think I'm nutz,purchasing the eggs not with the intention of raising and improving on the SOP for show, but rather breeding them into my meat flock. They have a very noticeable body confirmation that upon looking into it comes in part from game fowl blood.

 

[gjensen]

You guys are getting off track, and operating from a faulty position. We will realize that, eventually. It is not a this vs. that. It is whether or not, genetically, it has any potential.

JRNash, generally you do not miss by much. The statement that the start and not the end is all that matters .. .. . No. The end should tell us where to start. I know what I want because I know where I am going. The two are connected. Not separate. There is a line between them. They are two parts of the same thing.

So. Knowing where we want to go, we look at what we have before us. Can we get there with this or that? We have to make judgments. They will offend some people. True, but the bird has potential or not. It is a good bird, or it is junk. It is what someone says that it is, or it is not. We make judgments to decide.

So it is not a pure breed or not debate. It is whether they are any good or not.

But that does also apply to pure breeds. If something is sold as something, it should be that something. If something is sold as being representative of something, it should be a good representative. If someone is sold something as a Rock, and then it is not . . . am I wrong for saying that it is not? Of course not. For some reason that is offensive to sensitive people, but it is not my fault they are ignorant on this subject. I cannot help they did not or do not know any better. It is like going to the dog pound and getting a mutt and calling it a German Shepherd because they did. In that case they are both naïve and passing on bad information.

Then the hybrids are better position does not work. You have to have two inbred lines in order to realize the benefits of hybrid vigor. You have to have one to enjoy the other. Two mutts do not provide hybrid vigor. You have to "set" a couple (or more) lines to get hybrid vigor.So, they both have their place. That is a circular argument so it goes round and round and it makes us dizzy.

Then show breeders in any species do not ruin utility breeds. What ruins utility breeds is people not breeding them for their purpose. And so I encourage people to do it. When good breeders quit breeding a breed for form AND function, then the breed in its useful form disappears. Usually that is because the breed is seldom actually used anymore. There is no demand. So if people want to breed lawn ornaments and toys, let them. Just know who they are when you purchase stock. Either they are breeding what you are looking for or they are not.

That Standards are a problem is short sighted. They are tools. An anchor to prevent something from becoming something else all together. The Standards are only tools that can be misused as any other tool can be misused.

It is not form vs. function either. Neither come before the other. They run together side by side. They are not intersecting lines, but in parallel.

So if you are going to sell something as something, it needs to be that something, or you are a liar. If it is a "pure breed" it should represent that breed well.

Now I always understood the purpose of this thread by it's title. What I like to discuss is the actual breeding. Breeding useful birds to be useful. That could be actual breeds and traditional simple crosses for me. Other than that, I have no real interest in BYC at all.

 

[gjensen]

This resonates a lot with me because I have Cream Legbars (and hang out on that thread). While they are pretty, one of the primary goals in the development of the cream legbar breed was clear auto sexing - and also, good production of reliably blue eggs (though some UK birds lay green ones) - both egg production goals (it being important to identify pullets up front). The breed has not been in the US for very long, and there's some limited genetics, which means the breed needs some work. Unfortunately, CL chicks command a high price - that means that while there are some dedicated breeders that appropriately cull, others just hatch a lot of chicks to sell for a lot of money (no culling/selection). In addition, one line (Jill Rees line out of the UK, now the only origin line sold from Greenfire) is now popular and is kind of taking over among the birds sold now. These birds have been selected for award winning adult plumage - and clear auto sexing is not as good and is quickly being lost (and there are more greenish eggs). So the key distinctive features of the breed are being lost in favor of subtle differences in feather color and pattern that win at poultry shows. It makes me NUTS!!!!! It's alarming how quickly things can go downhill without proper attention to selection. I have three pullets from a HATCHERY that showed better auto sexing features (especially 2 of them) than current ones coming out of some "breeder" sources (and even some coming from Greenfire) - and they are also pretty lovely ladies. I sure hope Greenfire is working on improving auto sexing in the Rees line. The tough thing with auto sexing is that you have to have good record keeping and good ethics - the auto sexing is at hatch, and you have to keep track of the ones who were clear/obvious and only breed from those (even if it gives you fewer chicks to sell). Also, there's no way to judge an adult bird's auto sexing features - only the adult plumage. I'm not a breeder - I don't have either the facilities or the time currently to hatch and then cull the large numbers of chicks/birds necessary to do it right. But it's enough to tempt me to, just out of frustration, to try to preserve these features.

- Ant Farm

You cannot let stuff like this bother you. It is not worth it. If it matters to you, develop your own line. Can you find a breeding partner that you can partner with? Otherwise what people do with their birds is their business. They are a possession of their own.

A breeder is one who breeds, like a gardener is one who gardens. There are poor gardeners, pretty good gardeners, and master gardeners. It all comes out in the wash eventually

 

[JRNash]

Hybrid vigor is not what I'm after Every strain of chicken started with a vision and a goal. I do apologize for getting off track.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

You cannot let stuff like this bother you. It is not worth it. If it matters to you, develop your own line. Can you find a breeding partner that you can partner with? Otherwise what people do with their birds is their business. They are a possession of their own.

A breeder is one who breeds, like a gardener is one who gardens. There are poor gardeners, pretty good gardeners, and master gardeners. It all comes out in the wash eventually

By "breeder", I meant someone who sells or otherwise distributes eggs/chicks outside of their own flock (naturally any time you let animals make babies, they are breeding, I know). You're right - I realize it irritates me beyond what it should - I was just making a point of the fact that breeding should be mindful (whether it is size, body quality, egg quality, auto sexing, etc.). I just worry that it's easier to lose those good qualities than to regain them later. Just ranting.

Indeed, I do have a "partner" who shares the same ideas as myself re: features to select for - I got my flock cockerel from her.

- Ant Farm

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

You cannot let stuff like this bother you. It is not worth it. If it matters to you, develop your own line. Can you find a breeding partner that you can partner with? Otherwise what people do with their birds is their business. They are a possession of their own.

A breeder is one who breeds, like a gardener is one who gardens. There are poor gardeners, pretty good gardeners, and master gardeners. It all comes out in the wash eventually

You know, your mention of gardening just made my brain turn in a different direction in thinking of this. I'm thinking of seed savers and people who develop hyperlocal strains of a given variety that do the very best in their yard/area - and this is seen as a very good thing, as it leads to lots of variety with regard to pest/disease resistance, heat or cold resistance, or thriving in salty soil (and therefore more resilience in the face of serious threats on a wider scale, re: severe weather, climate, or pest/disease outbreaks). See Irish potato famine for reference.

Indeed this is what we all should be doing for our own birds in our own flocks - and, by default, we do (hopefully), because we select those who do well. For instance, all of mine will ultimately be selected to do well in this hot hot climate (meat birds will grow well, layers will lay well), and to be alert and run for cover when an aerial predator approaches. This leads to overall increased robustness PROVIDED there is mindful selection. Letting everyone have babies regardless won't get you very far, and too many "crutches" would be problematic as well (which I will struggle with - how long do I provide overhead protection, what losses am I willing to accept - I will need to develop more vegetative cover before leaving them open and exposed to hawks, though).

I think the reason I'm so irritated about the CL situation is that I had always planned to do this work with the Naked Neck flock, but hadn't really anticipated a second "project" to work on the CLs. More work (though if it bothers me this much, I suppose I should put my money where my mouth is...)

- Ant Farm

 

[JRNash]

You hit the nail on the head Antfarm. A bird I raise for MY conditions may not be suited fir yours and vice versabut we can all garden

 

[gjensen]

You know, your mention of gardening just made my brain turn in a different direction in thinking of this. I'm thinking of seed savers and people who develop hyperlocal strains of a given variety that do the very best in their yard/area - and this is seen as a very good thing, as it leads to lots of variety with regard to pest/disease resistance, heat or cold resistance, or thriving in salty soil (and therefore more resilience in the face of serious threats on a wider scale, re: severe weather, climate, or pest/disease outbreaks). See Irish potato famine for reference.

Indeed this is what we all should be doing for our own birds in our own flocks - and, by default, we do (hopefully), because we select those who do well. For instance, all of mine will ultimately be selected to do well in this hot hot climate (meat birds will grow well, layers will lay well), and to be alert and run for cover when an aerial predator approaches. This leads to overall increased robustness PROVIDED there is mindful selection. Letting everyone have babies regardless won't get you very far, and too many "crutches" would be problematic as well (which I will struggle with - how long do I provide overhead protection, what losses am I willing to accept - I will need to develop more vegetative cover before leaving them open and exposed to hawks, though).

I think the reason I'm so irritated about the CL situation is that I had always planned to do this work with the Naked Neck flock, but hadn't really anticipated a second "project" to work on the CLs. More work (though if it bothers me this much, I suppose I should put my money where my mouth is...)

- Ant Farm

Don't put your money where your mouth is for everything that bothers you. When I do that, I run out of money. LOL.

We do select according to our conditions. The birds better adapted to our conditions perform better. Priority is ALWAYS health and vigor. That settles the rest concerning conditions. This takes many generations. We select our birds according to diet to.

Predation is not a good selector unless you are moving to southeast Asia and will select Jungle Fowl. We are not raising wild birds. That would be like breeding and selecting Labrador Retrievers to survive like wolves. What I am saying is we are breeding egg and meat producers not Jungle Fowl. Our birds are at an unfair disadvantage against hawks etc. Managing predators is part of the game.