BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

By great quantities I would say they fill their crop as soon as it is dumped. I actually checked crops before and after one time.

They are on 20% grower as an all flock. I also scatter oat, wheat, peas, milo, boss, millet, milo over their range to encourage them to spread out and forage. Insects are plenty during the warmer months. I keep a whole bale of fine textured alfalfa under cover for them to nibble as they please. I think the only thing lacking is live greens.

I agree that the probiotic benefit of the manure could well be the motivator as the probiotics would make it a live green food of a sort.

I do not get the filling the crop part. I get eating some, and scratching through it for other things. I do not get living off of it. But whatever they are craving, they will get enough of, and a balance will return. They will probably still eat some, but in moderation. They instinctively find a balance, and they have had said that something is missing. LOL.

Cheap feed I guess.

 

[Mini Meat]

I have also considered dehydrating surplus summer eggs and storing them a winter protein supplement.

When the drought eases I want to plant Chayote and Pigeon peas as perennial food sources.

 

[Mini Meat]

I do not get the filling the crop part. I get eating some, and scratching through it for other things. I do not get living off of it. But whatever they are craving, they will get enough of, and a balance will return. They will probably still eat some, but in moderation. They instinctively find a balance, and they have had said that something is missing. LOL.

Cheap feed I guess.

I suspect when/if the rains come and the grasses come up, they will not feel the need to eat so much. I will have to monitor that for curiosities sake.

 

[bnjrob]

Two questions:

1) What are the best ways to increase protein when adding carbohydrates such as sweet potatoes or turnips? In the "old" days per my old 1942 book on keeping poultry on scraps, where they were dealing with wartime rationing, there was a lot of fish scraps being cooked into submission and mixed with mash (don't really want to do that). Does one maybe switch to a game bird ration for a period time? Other supplement?

That would depend a lot on how many turnips/sweet potatoes they would be eating. If I were giving it as a snack type item, I would leave them on their regular feed. For chickens we do 21% protein feed after 4 months old, year round.

2) Unrelated question, probably answered here before but I can't seem to recall details - meat production data is straight-forward - you can weigh each bird. But what is the best way to track egg production (including beginning to lay again after moult) without trap nests? (I know you can track how long they are in mount and check pelvic spread, etc., but I figured the proof is in the eggs.) Perhaps if you have a sense of who lays what kind of egg, and the colors are different in a given coop? I saw a photo of a coop (sort of a "glamour shot," really), and there was this cute chalkboard with egg talley's for each (named) hen. I found myself asking "How on earth do they know?" The photo implied that each hen had her own nest (which doesn't really happen). It bugged me, and made me want to ask here again.

Without trap nesting you aren't going to get accurate numbers, but if you have smaller pens, you can get a general idea of laying. When I have a pen with 8 hens and I'm getting 4 eggs every day, then I have a good idea that they are probably all laying every other day, because I know my breed's characteristics, and my flock's characteristics. It isn't as scientific or accurate as the spreadsheet data you are making for your flock, but I've made breeding decisions based on this type of casual observation of egg laying and it has worked fine. Just depends how much data you feel you need, what accuracy level that you want. If you want highly accurate, trap nesting is the only way. Some people have put food coloring in their hens' vents for keeping track of egg production, but I have not found that to work any better than observing which hens I find in nestboxes and keeping track of how many eggs come out of a pen every day.

 

[hellbender]

I guess this will be my last post using dad's membership and when I get my laptop working again, I will get my own membership. I will likely use my own name if it is available and I will use my own picture as an avatar, I think. Until Saturday or Sunday, I will continue to lurk without posting. I have been sorely tempted to post in a few places, including this thread and a few of the reviews of breeds. I hear the big dogs raising cane at what seems to be sort of close to the house and I want to use dad's special binoculars to see, if I can. I will conclude this post after I take a look.

***************************** 10 minutes later.

I can see the dogs milling around and barking under a walnut tree, likely a coon up the tree. I hope they soon get tired or bored because the racket is bad and the other dogs are bouncing off the chain link kennel panels, trying to get out. Good times for all but me and whatever is in that tree.

Ariel

 

[gjensen]

Evaluating a layer is by a laying cycle. The pullet year is from point of lay until they stop to molt. The hen year is from molt to molt. Laying naturally fluctuates with the seasons, weather, stressors, etc.

Basing our conclusions on perception is essentially lying to ourselves. We are unable to intelligently come to any helpful conclusions unless we track them an entire laying cycle. Truly, there is no other way that actually proves the conclusion. Any other method leaves doubt concerning the interpretation. Evaluating now is only a snapshot in time.

The best way to track them, obviously, is trap nests. Another way, though not as good, is to track pens. Preferably small pens. You simply count eggs and calculate an average. While you are at it, you will be able to identify your best couple layers, and your worst layer. Rid yourself of the bottom, and emphasize the top.

If you really want to learn this, read Call of the Hen. There is a tendency to over appreciate the conclusions, but it is still a very helpful book to read and digest. This will help you identify your best and worst layers in a pen. This is an aid for culling. Not breeding. It is not a breeding method. It is useful for culling. I will add a final caution, very good birds can and do cycle out of lay for an unknown reason. It is not helpful to disregard the genetic resource found in this bird unnecessarily.
More than the cautions, this book will help you appreciate a good bird.

Another book is Genetics of the Fowl. It has a section on laying genetics. It is based on a trap nest system, but the system is closer to modern and more scientific. The two of these resources together, or similar, provides a healthy balance. One puts the other in perspective. Both have value on the homestead, and they are complimentary to each other.

Breeding productive layers is not as simple. It is not as simple as to keep the best layers and breed them. In a small amount of birds, this really no more than maintenance. I am calling a small amount of birds anything under 100.
The reason is, it is not simply inherited. It is not also a simple gene that makes a good layer. It is a polygenic characteristic. That is, what makes a good layer is a compilation of traits. She is the sum of her parts. She is not a good layer because she has a good laying gene, though if you listen to the "experts" they sound as if that is what they are saying.
I say this for more than one reason. One is that you keep your eye on a number of characteristics. One is point of lay. Another is length of lay. Who is the last to quit laying? Who is the first to start back? Become familiar with their laying cycle. The best layers lay for longer periods before their cycle starts again and there is a pause or break. Figure out what they are as an average. How many pounds of feed per dozen eggs in your system?

The actual breeding of production layers is generally based on sires. Sons are chosen, from the best layers. More than one of these sons is used on a pen of top producing females. Then the offspring are evaluated, and the project moves along the line of the superior sire. Over the course of generations, averages are improved. Birds must be proven to produce performing individuals, because it is not simply inherited. Just because a hen was a record setter, does not mean any of her sons or daughters will be useful. The methodology is to identify who will produce those offspring. Over time, there is an accumulation of sorts.

A lot of this is beyond the scope of backyarders, but the concepts can be adapted. Much of learning about it, helps to understand it and put it into perspective. These things are for those of us that enjoy the process etc.

Really doing it requires a lot of birds and a lot of time. It is a dedicated specialty. People like me use these concepts hoping to make some progress, and as maintenance. I continue to consider creating a strain of utility bantams that laid small eggs. The reason is that I could keep a larger qty. of birds to do it, and specialize. I would like to do this for my own reasons, but not enough to have done it yet.

It is also not purely about the numbers. Egg size, interior quality, and exterior quality, does matter. This is something that we cull for at egg setting time, at least.

When considering a pure breed etc., it is a crime (in my mind) not to. One thing is certain, if we are not moving forward, we are moving backwards. The current does not stop pulling against us.

 

[Ifish]

Two questions:

1) What are the best ways to increase protein when adding carbohydrates such as sweet potatoes or turnips? In the "old" days per my old 1942 book on keeping poultry on scraps, where they were dealing with wartime rationing, there was a lot of fish scraps being cooked into submission and mixed with mash (don't really want to do that). Does one maybe switch to a game bird ration for a period time? Other supplement?



- Ant Farm

We are feeding a grower ration from a local mill. I had them customize it for me as it is normally 17% protein. They added some soybean meal to the ration and it is now 21% protein. Before that we were feeding Turkey and Gamebird feed that was 21%. Bags of roasted soybean is pretty cheap at a feed mill and can be used as scratch or mixed into their feed. I have 100lbs of whole roasted soy to toss them this winter. The birds like the whole beans and it would increase their protein intake and balance out the potatoes. Roasted soy is considered to be a complete protein.

Pumpkin seeds and sunflower seeds can be dried and stored all winter. Both are a good source of protein, but are not complete proteins on their own.

Fish food was a great suggestion.

 

[Beer can]

Was behind, caught up now.
I just had good luck weighing mine before I moved them to new breeder coop. I used a digital kitchen scale I bought at Aldi's for $10 a few yrs ago. I needed a accurate scale for sausage and bologna making etc, can't be off on weights cure/nitrates. I've double checked the scale, very accurate. When chickens can't see they don't wiggle or move, I tared out a paper bag and put them in a paper bag, worked great, digital scale didn't vary at all, they stayed still.

 

[Beer can]

Winter greens, I've grown more cabbage and kale this yr than we need. Cabbage in the store I've saw for sale after holidays at .28 cents a pound if you don't grow it. Cabbage is very high in nutrients/vitamins and stores for a long time. Same with pumpkins and squash, long term storage. I have mature kale, another bed half size, and started another bed a month ago, have heard it will survive winter freezing, first yr growing it so I'll find out how long the newer two beds do. Bought kale seed at $2 a ounce, seeds are tiny so I'm not out much.
Interesting to hear you can feed them sweet potatoes, I love them and just recently found out they will grow in our climate, adding them to our garden next yr.
Anybody have experience growing Mangles?
R.H Shumway's seed catalog has them and they say "equal in nutrition to grain for stock feed at half the cost" 2 foot long roots, half growing above surface 15 pounds each, $2.55 ounce, $8.50 1/4 pound. I would like to try them next yr especially if we get a couple pigs.

 

[hellbender]

I can't resist, dad is being discharged today. What I write now is just a statement, not a complaint. It has been really tough here, especially the milking and in spite of the very capable help that I was left with. One of Jason's friends Auggie, who took care of the dogs, is very handy with wood work so I showed him one of those boxes that people show off their chickens in and he has agreed to build one, to be ready when Jason and dad get home. He said it will take him all of 60 minutes to cut it out, put it together and put a couple coats of spray primer and whatever color I want as top coat. Now, the next time I post, it will be on my own account.

Ariel