BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

My situation is, I have no mentor and I really don't know the breed as well as I'd like. So I wil have to just do the best I can and select the ones that seem to appear nearest the standard, since I do plan to keep a pure line of Chanteclers.

IIt is that way on the final round. If we are not struggling at all, considering the final birds, we are not thinking.

It also depend on the birds.

What I always end up sorting through is not who is best, but who has what that is useful. I intend all points to be represented, though it is not in a single bird.

Post good profile shots, and I would try to help. At least color is not a consideration. That is a plus.

 

[hellbender]

Additionally, I have 11Chantecler pullets and from my viewpoint and I think only 3 perhaps 4 are of the quality to hatch eggs from. Pictures soon, in the box. lol

 

[Beekissed]

I always found finding culls to be easy and have never had a hard time culling.

Same here. This year it was especially easy as I only had one cockerel worth keeping...he stood out wings and shoulders above the rest in quality and even the older hens and the cock chose him above the rest. He was the only cockerel out of 11 that they allowed to flock with them, feed and roost with them without pecking him. He was clearly their choice for a replacement breeder as well. The rest of the cockerels were forced/chose to live out in the honeysuckle thicket and on the fringe of the meadow, only coming in to roost each evening.

The pullets only showed 2 that I would consider breeding, out of 9 possible choices, though the rest will winter over to provide mating opportunities for my young cockerel. When they get to POL I'll know more about which ones really have what I'm looking for, but those chosen 2 show the most promise.

Today I did the last of my culling for the season, with a total of 10 cockerels packed tightly into 37 qt jars by the end of this evening's canning. All 5 mo. old, existing almost entirely on foraged feeds and I was surprised to find them just rolling in fat! I've never seen that on cockerels before...but then, this is the first time I've had WR cockerels to kill. Their skin was lined with a thick layer of fat, their gizzards were encased in it and they even had fat deposits along their backs and in their abdomens. Their meat was just golden with fat. If I didn't know any better I would have thought I was killing old, spent hens. I'm pretty tickled with how meaty and fat they were.

 

[NanaKat]

Thanks for the well wishes.

Not many people seemed to appreciate the black bear pics. Nor do we appreciate threats to our livestock from any varmint and the bear population in West Virginia has reached VARMINT proportions...in fact there are far more black bear in this state now than there were when the Native Americans controlled this area of the country.

None of the young dogs were seriously hurt and every part of the bear went to use.  

Thanks again for the good wishes.

RON

So glad to see you back..you were missed!
Love black bear roast! Haven't had it in years because we have very few in our state.

That's always the hardest part for me...deciding culls vs keeps. The ones who are mean make the decision easier, but when I have a bunch of beautiful, non-aggressive, impressive cockerels running around like I do now I tend to keep them alive and kicking a lot longer than my neighbors probably appreciate. (Mornings and early evenings get pretty darn noisy around my home.  ) I've got two 19-week old cockerels right now that with crooked toes that I know I should cull.....but they're both so incredibly sweet that I haven't been able to bring myself to cull them. I know...I know....I'm a total sucker, but as soon as one of those handsome fellas hops up onto my lap to let me pet 'em my heart just melts and the chopping block remains vacant. 

Lest someone feels otherwise, I don't take the life of even a chicken with joy in my heart but I've hardened myself to it over the years, knowing every bird/goat kid can not be kept alive.  It takes time and it does come with the territory.

I'm sure I will be second-guessing myself over these Chantecler cockerels but all I can do is the best that I can.  I've studied the standard and I've looked at a thousand pictures and basically, in this case, it comes down to gut-instinct.    

Culling here takes time to allow the better juveniles to reach 8 months. I find the Wyandotte reach better levels of potential when they get past the gangly teen stage.
I have black and white silhouette photos taped to the wall in the juvenile pen so I can keep the Standard ever present....but the hawks and owls have picked off a few of the better cockerels this year. I'm continuing to hatch thru the middle of November to keep the numbers up there. I have three really lovely pullets that I've put in the most secure pen I have.

 

[Beekissed]

Did they get them in the spring or in the fall?

 

[Beer can]

Could have posted a few quotes, but I'll save space. For one I didn't even know they had bear in Florida, love the state we went down there three yrs in a row, couldn't afford to this yr, actually in my opinion couldn't afford to any year but we did anyways. Didn't know they had them until I read about the season on them.
I culled every 'non-conforment' red sussex and white giant I had, to save on feed, left me with not many, two cockerels of each breed and two and three pullets of each, think I should cull another red sussex pullet, so a breeding trio of each. And one of the sussex cockerels has a flopped over comb, but correct in every other way, might cull him soon also. So definitely only breeding trios.
In the big coop I have kept the lone langshan, hoping for a pullet, not sure of it is. Wife did not want me to cull it, to purty. Tossed her house chickens in today, welsummer easter egger crosses, langshan was pretty docile, he puffed up and attacked the house chickens, wife said kill him...Lol..

 

[hellbender]

Could have posted a few quotes, but I'll save space. For one I didn't even know they had bear in Florida, love the state we went down there three yrs in a row, couldn't afford to this yr, actually in my opinion couldn't afford to any year but we did anyways. Didn't know they had them until I read about the season on them.
I culled every 'non-conforment' red sussex and white giant I had, to save on feed, left me with not many, two cockerels of each breed and two and three pullets of each, think I should cull another red sussex pullet, so a breeding trio of each. And one of the sussex cockerels has a flopped over comb, but correct in every other way, might cull him soon also. So definitely only breeding trios.
In the big coop I have kept the lone langshan, hoping for a pullet, not sure of it is. Wife did not want me to cull it, to purty. Tossed her house chickens in today, welsummer easter egger crosses, langshan was pretty docile, he puffed up and attacked the house chickens, wife said kill him...Lol..

About 18 years ago, I sold 3 bear dogs and one top bobcat dog to a guy named Shuyler who lived around Tallahassee and was a big timber man (pine forests). There were plenty of bear around there and they were damaging his young trees. He did come up to hunt with us twice and we met him in North Carolina one time for a week long hunt. Great times.

 

[gjensen]

When we are actually breeding, and we are breeding birds that are a sum of their parts, there is a lot to sort through. Hypothetically, we have a pullet that has this particular strength. On that specific point she is stronger than the best bird you have. A breeder is looking how to strengthen that point in his or her line. This may mean doing this or doing that. Breeders have always done this, and from hundreds of years ago. How do I strengthen this trait? How do I introduce this trait (no line or strain has it all)? When and if you get into the "meat of it", there becomes a lot to consider. There is a lot to consider. If one wants to keep it simple and merely perpetuate what they have, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not breeding for improvement.

And if we are finished culling now, then we are missing a lot. I have reduced myself to my winter pullets, and the cockerels that I will hold over. Culling is on going however. We should be evaluating hens, and not pullets. Proving cocks.

A hen is not fully evaluated until her pullet year is through and into that next spring. Not as a pullet in her first fall. Now you prove her. She is only beneficial if she contributes her desirable characteristics to her offspring. In this respect, one hen is better than another. A cock is not fully evaluated until his offspring are evaluated, after he has been bred as a cock.

Many of the traits that we concern ourselves with are not visible. We have to "prove" their existence. This is a necessary part.

If we are interested in the longevity and survivability of our birds, we do not merely replace pullets with pullets. We breed cocks and hens. Not cockerels and pullets. We breed cocks and hens that have been proven by their offspring, and continue to emphasize them until they die, are no longer functionally fertile, or they have been replaced by something better. If a proven cock is still producing 50% fertile eggs at five years old, and produces birds as well as anything else that you have, then I assure you that he is the most valuable bird on the farm.

We complain about the longevity of commercial production strains that by default are not bred for longevity. Then we repeat the same process with our own birds.

Breeders are most concerned with the survivability and longevity of their line. There is nothing more important than health and vigor. Health and vigor is proven with the passing of time. The evaluation on this point has only begun in their first fall.

Culling is not that simple. It is an ongoing process that never ends. Over the course of a pullet year, and into the first spring as a hen, we should be evaluating who that year's breeders should be.

This is not taking a trip to "Build a Bear". This is a long term project that requires patience. There are numerous things to consider and we are always considering. Always looking. Always evaluating. Always culling. Always mentally setting up breeding pens, and pairs, and trios etc. Even for flock mating, we are always scheming. We never quit learning a bird or birds. We have a pretty good idea what we MIGHT have in their second spring. Then we prove them worthy or unworthy by their offspring.

We have only begun evaluating birds in their first fall.

 

[gjensen]

Very interesting, which breed did you use in the Catalana outcross a New Hampshire?
Also how many generations of crossing back are you at ? are you near to your goal of introducing this blood to your pure flock ?

This is where I am with the project lines. We do not have any good black tailed buff varieties here in the US. Not consistently. I suppose it is because it is an especially difficult color. Buff is difficult to master on it's own. (If Dave is still following the thread.)

 

[DesertChic]

When we are actually breeding, and we are breeding birds that are a sum of their parts, there is a lot to sort through. Hypothetically, we have a pullet that has this particular strength. On that specific point she is stronger than the best bird you have. A breeder is looking how to strengthen that point in his or her line. This may mean doing this or doing that. Breeders have always done this, and from hundreds of years ago. How do I strengthen this trait? How do I introduce this trait (no line or strain has it all)? When and if you get into the "meat of it", there becomes a lot to consider. There is a lot to consider. If one wants to keep it simple and merely perpetuate what they have, there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not breeding for improvement.

And if we are finished culling now, then we are missing a lot. I have reduced myself to my winter pullets, and the cockerels that I will hold over. Culling is on going however. We should be evaluating hens, and not pullets. Proving cocks.

A hen is not fully evaluated until her pullet year is through and into that next spring. Not as a pullet in her first fall. Now you prove her. She is only beneficial if she contributes her desirable characteristics to her offspring. In this respect, one hen is better than another. A cock is not fully evaluated until his offspring are evaluated, after he has been bred as a cock.

Many of the traits that we concern ourselves with are not visible. We have to "prove" their existence. This is a necessary part.

If we are interested in the longevity and survivability of our birds, we do not merely replace pullets with pullets. We breed cocks and hens. Not cockerels and pullets. We breed cocks and hens that have been proven by their offspring, and continue to emphasize them until they die, are no longer functionally fertile, or they have been replaced by something better. If a proven cock is still producing 50% fertile eggs at five years old, and produces birds as well as anything else that you have, then I assure you that he is the most valuable bird on the farm.

We complain about the longevity of commercial production strains that by default are not bred for longevity. Then we repeat the same process with our own birds.

Breeders are most concerned with the survivability and longevity of their line. There is nothing more important than health and vigor. Health and vigor is proven with the passing of time. The evaluation on this point has only begun in their first fall.

Culling is not that simple. It is an ongoing process that never ends. Over the course of a pullet year, and into the first spring as a hen, we should be evaluating who that year's breeders should be.

This is not taking a trip to "Build a Bear". This is a long term project that requires patience. There are numerous things to consider and we are always considering. Always looking. Always evaluating. Always culling. Always mentally setting up breeding pens, and pairs, and trios etc. Even for flock mating, we are always scheming. We never quit learning a bird or birds. We have a pretty good idea what we MIGHT have in their second spring. Then we prove them worthy or unworthy by their offspring.

We have only begun evaluating birds in their first fall.

I am so glad you posted this! I was just about to ask for advice on when is the best time to evaluate a female for culling or retaining as I've yet to venture down that path.

In maintaining my pure line of NN Turkens I keep an eye on the SOP, but ultimately I'm still breeding for good production of eggs or meat, depending upon the line, and overall hardiness. My NN flock hatched in January of this year so that one year anniversary is quickly approaching and I've been watching my girls closely. I'm really impressed by their body density...very meaty breasts and legs...and I'm actually quite impressed with how well they lay too. Right now they're in the middle of a pretty aggressive molting process and I'm still averaging 4-6 large eggs per week from each of them. I only have four pure pullets and I'm down to two pure cockerels, but just performed a hatching using primarily a third cockerel that I have since culled due to temperament in order to add diversity and work towards some improvement in comb and color conformity. I'm hoping to get a couple of really clean buffs out of that mating.

Patience....yeah, that's always been one of my weak points, but managing these birds is teaching me a great deal about the virtues of being patient.

All of that said, my two favorite chicks out of the last hatch have been "surprises". The first is this gorgeous guy....the progeny of my two favorite NNs. Daddy wasn't the buff cockerel I culled, but my gorgeous black cockerel I had been planning to breed next. I guess he sneaked in when I wasn't looking. He's a very solid pure NN with the most impressive growth rate in the group and a very confident demeanor.



The second surprise is an Austrolorp/NN cross I had been expecting. I crossed my Aussies with my Bielefelder cockerel, but one of my NN boys must have gotten to my best Australorp layer when I wasn't looking. Frisky, sneaky little guys.

This chick has really been impressing me with very rapid growth, outstanding temperament and vitality, and a healthy dose of smarts.



So I went for buff and fell in love with the black chicks.