BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[neopolitancrazy]

... I spent a lot of time ... fighting the billing out issue ... and lots and lots of feed ended up in the bedding. ...

- Ant Farm

If your feeders and feeding schedule permit, consider switching to moist feeds, either soaked grains/mash/fermented feed. They can't bill that out, but I also had to feed every day(instead of putting a week's to month's worth of dry feed in a feeder and getting on with my life.)

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[DesertChic]

The birds are half Ga Noi and half Asil. Had to cross some Asil on them to get some more feathers. The full Ga Noi don't like the cold. With Asil I don't lose the type or the extreme friendliness. Someone further south could do well with a Ga Noi for making meat birds. IA lot of them run up to ten pounds. They would throw more sparse feathering on anything you crossed with, and a big frame with well developed breast. I have one pullet that turned six months old and showed up with chicks and another that has given me an egg a day since early September. They aren't cheap, but the hens keep on going for years and years.

I hear you on the Cubas, there are some people working on getting them bigger. The oriental games can bring a lot to the table, literally, in a meat bird, they are the genetic well that the Cornish was drawn from.

You've given me a lot to think about...and a new breed to research. Ga Noi? Very interesting! Thanks!

 

[Kassaundra]

@varidgerunner , it was my understanding (but no personal knowledge) those breeds were more difficult to keep w/ other birds or even aggressive w/ themselves. (not people aggressive, but other bird aggressive) is that true?

 

[LindaB220]

First of all, LindaB I am truly sorry to hear of your loss.  I never know what to say, as words seem inadequate.

Now, on to the subject of capons versus fryers versus the Cornish-Rock fatty babies in the grocery.  We need to specify which cockerels we are discussing, because the baby chunks in the grocery are a whole different chicken from a 12 week old Wyandotte cockerel (This is my example, so these are my breeds!).  I have raised up a few batches of those Cornish-Rock crosses, and I just cannot personally do that anymore.  Even when I had the little chubs out on grass, and moving their tractor every day for fresh grass, there was still a difference in taste between them and the other breeds.  Don't get me wrong - those nuggets got enough exercise to make some impressive Logan's Runs.  I am still grateful the neighbor's kids weren't there with a camera to record the one pullet who ran *just* fast enough to avoid being picked up.  Something I noticed about the CR nuggets, and it was particularly obvious on the last two, is that if you don't slaughter them by a reasonable time they start hit all the infamous health problems, even with a good amount of exercise, fresh grass, and whatever bugs they can catch.  They do put on an impressive amount of meat, even if it is not overly flavorful.

The Wyandotte cockerels (or your personal dual purpose or meat breed of choice) get quite flavorful by the time they start crowing, but are often still on the lanky/scrawny side when I finally get tired of the normal cockerel attitude, so I will be caponizing during the 8-12 week old window on the smaller 2/3 of each hatch until I get enough weights for that age to establish a "normal range" and a make-or-break point.

So far hubby and I have only ate a couple slips, not a full capon yet.  Uno - the hatchery GLW capon hatched in January, and the only full capon for that batch - will be holiday dinner.  We just need to co-ordinate with my father-in-law on which holiday he'll be featured on the big china platter.  The slip who nannied some chicks, Cappy, was smoked then crock potted until tender, and I recall posting something here about how exquisite he tasted.  All he had was a bit of brining and a couple hours' smoking for seasoning, so the rest of the wonderful flavor was him. (NB: Pollux, the other full capon and one of Luann'es Ams, is nannying one chick right now and will be given some more soon.  Castor showed a slip, and was also very tasty.)

I figure since I am breeding, then I might as well be caponizing.  Perhaps this winter, hubby will make me a screened-in room to do work like caponizing and processing carcasses, away from the mosquitoes and biting yellow flies, and with a roof to keep out the rain, falling acorns, and whatnot.  Perhaps, the two people here who expressed interest in learning to caponize will make it out on a morning where 20% chance of rain doesn't mean five hours' downpour.  I could use some accomplices.

Desertchic, since you are interested in caponzing, I say keep trying.  I say that as someone who has only two full capons out of 17 attempts, and also someone who has not (yet!) eaten a full capon.  The slips have been good enough for me to keep trying.

George, if you are wanting to at least try a slip, I need a week's notice for proper resting and brining.  Potential couch-surfers are given fair warning about how much my dog loves company.  If you want to risk that, bring rain gear.

Thanks Sweetie, appreciate it. I love this post!!! So many positive things about caponizing. Love the possibility.

 

[varidgerunner]

Adult males have to have their own digs. They do OK as long as they are hen raised, up until they are butchering size. Sometimes, brothers can get along until they are around a year old The hens can be almost as bad, but since they are broody all of the time, they are in their own place anyway. If left out on range, they will find their own space. The males are no more likely to fight than any other breed, they are just not likely to stop, once they start. In cross breeds, they are just big dumb goons that want food, in my experience. If pure games are raised in an un-natural, henless system, they can get pretty rough on each other in the brooder.

 

[LindaB220]

I will share a story of my life with chickens and the evolution of my breeding strategy, for self sustaining pasture based chickens raised in house, with no bought chicks.

So, like most of us, I was born. That is where this story begins. My Grandma was old, she only had one chicken. The chicken house had fallen into disrepair, mom and dad didn't like chicken poop, Grandma couldn't take care of things anymore, so that was that. I remember asking grandma to hold me up to the window so I could see "chick-hen". She died in a snowstorm when I was like five, (chick-hen, not Granny). I still picked Grandma's brain, of her life with chickens, all the different breeds, outlined in a tattered hatchery catalog. And so it was, through many bleak years, Mom and Dad pointing out all of the things that would go wrong if we got chickens, hordes of ravaging foxes, mite infestations of biblical proportions, and the multimillion dollar feed bill. On through the bleak years, Grandma passed. Then a bright spot. I got married. To a girl who appreciated agricultural endeavors, no less. She became my great enabler.

 One of the first things I did was build a barn. Then a home. (Still working on that one). Order some chicks. Instant happiness. And so it went, rattling through the years. Order a different breed every year, or heck, an assortment. By the time the dark egger craze hit, we had graduated through several incubators, up to a giant cabinet incubator and a hatcher. We were doing hundreds of chicks, fancy dark egg layers, some meat birds, selling day olds up through point of lay pullets, good times. Then the kids came. No more time for hundreds of chicks. We quit hatching. Just bought an assortment, ate the roosters, kept the layers, sell them off and have another batch coming on.

By that time, there seemed to be a lot of people raising chicks. I was no longer interested in "ordinary" chickens. I became interested in the various, colorful gamefowl breeds. They had cool, obscure names, and there socially unacceptable heritage made them somewhat rare, but not have eggs shipped through customs rare. Just some little play pretties off to the side. At first, I was pretty turned off by the oriental games. Then through a twist of fate, I ended up with one. I was instantly taken with their raw ugliness, grace, and because they lack natural fear responses found in most chickens, they are just the doggone friendliest things on earth. I mean take a rooster for a ride to the landfill with you friendly. How cool is it to take your pullet fishing.

So, integrating that into a pasture based meat and egg production system was the next logical step. There are no incubators or brooders in use now. I have hens that can do a far better job. They can take better care of them than I can, and I am tractoring around small, easy to move pens, with smaller numbers of chicks, and in some cases letting hens free range their broods. I raise a few orientals on the first brood and then on the second and third broods I am raisng replacement layers in small batches, so hopefully I will have seamless egg production. I have butchered some of the games and it is apparent that the Cornish owes it's meat heritage to the Asil, they are some thick breasted little things. My Ga Noi are interesting me, I have enough now that I should be able to do some experimental crossing, on dual purpose heritage breeds, I have some BLR Wyandottes and some buff Orpingtons, from one of the accidental breedings I had, I am expecting near Cornish X performance on a hen raised pastured chick. My Asils are small, but I am planning on crossing some of them on some Dorkings, ought to get a plump breasted little bird from that cross. I know that I am definitely onto something with the tight feathered big breasted oriental crossed on the heritage types, they are getting a real kick from the hybrid vigor and both parent lines are easily self replicated. So now you know my system and how it came about.

Now that sounds like a perfect hybrid to me. Love Dorkings

 

[gjensen]

I had remembered you had said that about lights and growth/appetite - so when they were in the brooder (first four weeks, essentially the month of September), I kept lights on later into the evening, so that they got about 14-16 hours light. I "weaned" them into more darkness the last week so it wouldn't be too much of a shock once they were outside (in a tractor - no ability to use lights). (Doing the same thing for the hatchery speckled sussex chicks right now as well).

I have been too all over the place in figuring out feeders that work well to track food and have it mean anything. I spent a lot of time playing catch up fighting the billing out issue in the brooder, and lots and lots of feed ended up in the bedding. I think when I have a better handle of how to prevent this much waste proactively and get a better "system" down of chick feeders by size/age, then feed input would probably mean more, data-wise.

- Ant Farm

You have to factor in waste, but it is hard to know what that is. For the average backyarder, it is in the range of a startling 20%. It can be more or less, depending on the keeper. If the feeders are over bedding, it does not hurt to let them run out once per week. The will scratch through and dig some of it out. It is not a fix all, but it helps.

Until you are settled, do not worry about it. You can simply count the 50lb bags they consume, and consider the dressed weight of the birds you process. multiply that by the quantity of birds you grew out, and you have what you need. It is only an average, but that is all you need. It is for information only.

That is all any of it is, informing. Once you have that picture in your mind, you start having a more informed view. We base a lot of what we know on perception, and it is not helpful. It is misleading. Until we formally go through the process, we do not know. We think we know, but we do not know. It is kind of like when the teacher asks us if we studied, but she knows by the answer we answered confidently.

 

[gjensen]

I have enjoyed seeing the Oriental breeds represented here. There is much to be admired about them. It is also encouraging to see a knowledgeable poultry keeper representing them. Most people keeping these breeds are.

I would say that the Malay is an ornamental representative of what they once were. They spent a long time being developed in Europe before they were brought here. To me it is kind of like the Minorca, but the English developed them into what we know.

Though the Cubalaya has Oriental influence, I would be tempted to lump them among bankiva fowl. They are a crossover of sorts. I have been called a heretic for that once, but I still hold this view. I do not have the emotional attachments.

Yes. The Cornish was an ornamental that was made up largely by the Asil. There are other influences to include the English Game. Americans realized their contribution in the 40s. They were crossed with New Hampshires. The modern broiler was born that year. The combination of the fast growing soft feathered breed, with the slow growing but meaty Cornish.
Todays broilers, all parents (and grandparents) of the broiler itself, show both influences. There is no true Cornish crosses today, but the parent birds have more of a Cornish carcass, and the growth rates of others. It is an interesting marriage.

And that is what this class of birds can still contribute in a simple backyard cross. The carcass.

The Oriental class, are slow to develop. The growth curve looks like a plateau. I played with a few, some time ago. I still have access to good birds, but I cannot do everything.

It was right to say that the hatchery rocks and reds have a growth curve that is sharp. Commercial layers have a similar growth curve. My New Hampshires are not as sharp, but they are meaty at a every stage of growth. If you want to split one at 8-10 wks and throw it on the grill, it is worth it to do it. A hatchery NH is still a bony chick at that age. Unfortunately Standard Barred Rocks are slow, but they are meaty at every stage.

Oriental Games have influence in many of our dual purpose breeds still. Watered down, of course, but they did contribute fleshing.

We could say that the Oriental Game, indirectly, helped us start the modern broiler industry.

 

[varidgerunner]

Thanks for the vote of confidence in the qualities present in oriental games. For what I can do in my back yard, I can put a better cockerel in the freezer with a large oriental crossed on a dual purpose hen, than the results I saw with hatchery cornishes in the same setting. I might have done better with more of a "typey" Cornish, but from what I can gather, they might not be as easy to keep going as my orientals. My main goal in the Asil Dorking cross is just the coolness factor of seeing what kind of heterosis will come out of these two ancient breeds. It might really nick. I might call them "true heritage broilers", but only in my own freezer.

I like the orientals, and they really tickle my fancy. But one can only tolerate so many of these, and it's hard to say no to hens that gather up rocks and old light bulbs to sit on. This past season, I put them to work rebuilding my layer flock. I have some dorkings, some buff orpington/red sex link cross, Leghorns in exchequer, some blue laced red wyandottes and a couple easter egger pullets. Next year I will be setting up some breeding pens with pure egg layers as well as some oriental crosses for just meat. The ones that I crossed before were on white leghorns and welsummers, so hoping for even better results from things like Wyandotte and the BO crosses.

 

[dfr1973]

I love this post!!! So many positive things about caponizing. Love the possibility.

Caponizing seems to be a good fit for me, my specific situation and what infrastructure is built so far. I am trying to use all the available tools to make things run as smoothly as I can. For someone with Beekissed's setup and methods, caponizing probably wouldn't be so useful. IIRC, Bee has all her flock free ranging, which means they can spread out enough to avoid squabbles, and with her prior comment about canning up all her older birds, there isn't much need. It does fit into some folks' styles and needs.