BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[varidgerunner]

I think I remember that dried crickets are somewhere above 50% protein. Clover is up there, too. But with live bugs and green forage, you have to remember that there is a high water content. This can offset the water intake, a chick in the wild can almost make it off of dew and water from foodstuff. My chickens seem to be their best in the winter when I offer meat and animal fat. I think that soy based protein is the main source of problems with "burning them up" from too much protein. But the big breeds will have problems with growing large before their bones have the right density. Most of the big breeds that haven't been highly refined have inefficient guts, built for handling larger quantities of food. Imagine in the wild, a chicken's first few meals would be relatively high protein bugs or seeds, and as it grows it takes in larger quantities of lower quality food. Not bashing anyone feeding high protein feed for longer periods, just pointing out what is natural.

 

[DesertChic]

Not much chanced of protein over-load on most common grasses. If they have access to legumes such as alfalfa, that could be a problem.

Good point! I always forget that alfalfa is a legume.

I typically sprout some alfalfa seeds for them in the winter time, but haven't conditioned my (rock) dirt sufficiently yet for alfalfa to grow well here. It's on the list though. Until then, I'll probably be picking up a few bales of alfalfa for them to eat and play with. If those bales are anything like the wheat and barley straw bales I bought earlier in the year, I wind up with some sprouting on my property is a bonus.

Since my chickens decided to eat all the kale I'd grown for them in one fell swoop, I've started sprouting seeds early this year, starting with sunflower seeds, wheat grass, oats, and a mixture of clover + alfalfa + radish. I've also started sprouting some new kale and Swiss Chard indoors where they can't get to them. If I can get the aquaponics set up soon enough I'll transplant into that, but otherwise I'll transplant them into my raised beds AFTER adding bird mesh around my garden.

 

[bramblefir]

I don't know if this is accurate or not, but have always heard if you cook in cast iron, especially your more acid longer cooked things (like spaghetti sauce, chilli, soup, etc..) it will increase your dietary iron. I've never had a problem so never seriously looked into it, and I always cook in cast iron anyway.

This is true. I do cook quite a bit with cast iron and this is the first time in my life that I've been iron deficient. My levels were great in the first trimester, but as of the third trimester they're barely below the local medical system's cutoff for anemia at a 9.8 (they consider anything below 10 to be anemic).

 

[hellbender]

I think I remember that dried crickets are somewhere above 50% protein. Clover is up there, too. But with live bugs and green forage, you have to remember that there is a high water content. This can offset the water intake, a chick in the wild can almost make it off of dew and water from foodstuff. My chickens seem to be their best in the winter when I offer meat and animal fat. I think that soy based protein is the main source of problems with "burning them up" from too much protein. But the big breeds will have problems with growing large before their bones have the right density. Most of the big breeds that haven't been highly refined have inefficient guts, built for handling larger quantities of food. Imagine in the wild, a chicken's first few meals would be relatively high protein bugs or seeds, and as it grows it takes in larger quantities of lower quality food. Not bashing anyone feeding high protein feed for longer periods, just pointing out what is natural.

Right you are sir!!! Soy is a chicken killer if used too liberally.

 

[bnjrob]

I was thinking the exact same thing, as that is essentially a "dilution" of protein usually. Also, re: the 20%, I just looked at the Flock Raiser bag and it indicates that it is fine for backyard chickens up to 18 weeks old - and it is 20% protein. So I can't imagine why the Purina rep would say that 20% protein would rot out a chickens gut or otherwise be harmful - I doubt they would recommend it otherwise.... For what it's worth...

Seems like per the Purina bag (again, just as one source of info, take it or leave it), up to 18 weeks the starter/grower (lower protein) is more for layer-specific/specialist or show birds, and the flock raiser is fine for everyone else.

- Ant Farm

Those recommendations on the feed bags are meant to be guidelines, not strict rules, and they are meant to sell feed. Granted, if the companies did not try to base their recommendations on some kind of research, not only could they not sell feed, they could also be held liable for killing people's poultry if something went awry. This way, if they have the recommendations listed on the bag, and a person fails to follow the recommendations and has a bad outcome, the company can protect itself. The company can use the defense that they do their own research and the consumer does not have the education that the company employees have, and thus the consumer killed their own birds because they failed to follow the guidelines issued by the feed company.

Have you seen the cute little houses that Purina has of their test flock? They post photos of their testing flock on Facebook and I have looked at their setup and wondered just how accurately they think that they can determine what is best for the majority of chickens. Their flock seems pretty small, is penned in what the photos show as somewhat small groups in correspondingly small pens, and they are most likely not breeding for specific goals of SOP or production like some of us are. From what I have seen of their testing flock, their birds and their setup, is quite different from what I have and I would not take their word as gospel because their testing situation is different from my real life situation. Yes, they employ people with educations, including veterinarians, but they cannot account for all the different variables of chicken breeds, husbandry, weather, breeding for specific traits, etc. There's just too many different things to account for. All they can do is to find a happy medium that doesn't kill large numbers of people's poultry and then it's up to the individual owner to look at their birds and see how their husbandry practices, including choice and amount of feed, is working for those birds and tweak things until their birds are meeting the goals that they have.

 

[ronott1]

I don't know if this is accurate or not, but have always heard if you cook in cast iron, especially your more acid longer cooked things (like spaghetti sauce, chilli, soup, etc..) it will increase your dietary iron. I've never had a problem so never seriously looked into it, and I always cook in cast iron anyway.

This is true. I do cook quite a bit with cast iron and this is the first time in my life that I've been iron deficient. My levels were great in the first trimester, but as of the third trimester they're barely below the local medical system's cutoff for anemia at a 9.8 (they consider anything below 10 to be anemic).

Iron will come out and "flavor" the food but the iron molecules are too large to be absorbed by the digestive system.

I hope you get the iron level up!

 

[DesertChic]

Right you are sir!!! Soy is a chicken killer if used too liberally.

And this is why my chicken feed is soy free.

 

[DesertChic]

I think I remember that dried crickets are somewhere above 50% protein. Clover is up there, too. But with live bugs and green forage, you have to remember that there is a high water content. This can offset the water intake, a chick in the wild can almost make it off of dew and water from foodstuff. My chickens seem to be their best in the winter when I offer meat and animal fat. I think that soy based protein is the main source of problems with "burning them up" from too much protein. But the big breeds will have problems with growing large before their bones have the right density. Most of the big breeds that haven't been highly refined have inefficient guts, built for handling larger quantities of food. Imagine in the wild, a chicken's first few meals would be relatively high protein bugs or seeds, and as it grows it takes in larger quantities of lower quality food. Not bashing anyone feeding high protein feed for longer periods, just pointing out what is natural.

Apparently I'm being too generous in doling out "ovations", so instead I just do this:

 

[ronott1]

Apparently I'm being too generous in doling out "ovations", so instead I just do this:

I gave one for you!

 

[Our Roost]

Geesh! I started a pointed conversation that just fell short of a riot. If you checked my record keeping, you would see that I am not even close to being a professionalist. I always question my own efforts and never try to be the director of the band so to speak.
Protein levels and feed always seem to be a controversial subject matter that even the best professionals dont always agree on in my opinion. I take what most of them have to say with a grain of salt but in full context. In other words, I listen. As I can see, most of you people have your own game plan also and dont find cold hard facts to hold water! Some of us are a little more up on it than others while some beginners are still experimenting or tinkering. I actually learned a few things from this debated conversation and will heed what has been said on some points. Good to share on this subject!