BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[lpatelski]

You two would fit in well w/ my workmates.  I have always (even as a child ) been extremely cold natured.  I freeze all the time.  It is nearly impossible to get me too hot, and if you succeed I can almost garuntee you would be melting by that time.  Being cold has always been physically painful to me.  If I have enough covers (my bed has multiple blankets year round) I don't mind a cooler sleeping room, but then comes the problem of getting out of bed.

I am the same way. No circulation frozen hands and feet.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

There are more nutrients in meat than just a balance of amino acids.

If you google anything about protein and poultry feed, you will find an huge amount of information. You will need to weed through a lot of links to threads like this to get to the science, but there is a TON of science on this.


Of course there is. But spelling it out is perhaps beyond the scope of this forum?

One of the questions I often have is how to translate the information about poultry feed that comes from The Industry, where birds are only expected to live a few weeks (Industrial broilers) or a few months (industrial layers), to something that is useful for birds we expect to be healthy & productive for perhaps years.

Yes, but as folks discuss this a lot, with varying opinions, I would still be interested to hear this particular researchers' opinion on it (animal vs. plant), as she seems to be interested in data on small flock maintenance. Not just "yes animal protein is better", but how big an issue/how much better.

We all have things we balance as we raise our birds (what's absolutely best vs. cost/difficulty in accomplishing it) - if we compromise, it is best to go into that compromise as well informed as possible.

(Just sayin'

)

- Ant Farm

 

[Kassaundra]

So I tracked down Dr. Brigid McCrea at Delaware State University. She heads up The Center for Small Flock Research and Innovation. She also did the research and wrote the paper on Delaware chicken production vs. Cornish Cross chicken production. In broadest terms it says the following:

Delawares reached a slaughter weight of approximately 2.2 KG at 15 weeks and ate approximately 220 KG of feed.

Cornish Cross reached a slaughter weight of approx. 2.2 KG at 6 weeks and ate approximately 100 KG of feed.

There was a lot of other technical stuff, but I was able to glean that much.

First of all I'm amazed there is a center at a university dedicated to helping people like us. Second I'd like to talk to the woman who makes it happen. So I've emailed Dr. McCrea, and she has graciously offered to talk to me on the phone. Does anyone have any questions they would like to suggest?

Anthony

Apologies! I was so excited by the response from Dr. McCrae I forgot I was posting on a public forum here. Guess I'm guilty of the same stupidity kids are when they post inappropriate pictures of themselves on-line for all eternity. You'd think at 51 I'd know better. I didn't say anything about discussing what Dr. McCrea might say in such a forum, so it would be a terrible breach of confidentiality if I did so. Please forgive my lack of judgement and accept my retraction. I will to keep any suggested questions in mind in case there is a future opportunity for me to ask them with full disclosure. And feel free to kick me in the pants for unwarranted indiscretion.

I have no doubt that kept in chicken houses w/ the only food source being what humans give them in a controlled environment this is absolutely true. But in real life there are other modifying factors. The Delaware chicks are free if you have a Delaware flock, cc's will cost in the neighborhood of $3 each give or take for sales or different shipping costs. If the Delaware chicks die before harvest you are just out the food, but the cc you are out the food plus the cost of the chicks, and there are more likely to be preharvest losses w/ the cc. Most people keeping a dp flock and harvesting from their own birds have some amount of "free food" in some form of natural available food (grass, bugs, weeds, garden waste etc...) the dp (Delaware) are more likely to utilize that decreasing the amount of bought food it will take to get them to harvest point.

I am not anti cc at all, I just hate seeing comparisons that only account for food costs.

 

[DesertChic]

78* is room temp. in your house? We begin to salivate and lick our arms like kangaroos at 72*!!

LOL! Only in the summer. If I turned down the A/C to make the house cooler than that we'd probably go bankrupt. Plus walking from a very cool house to the 100+ outdoor temps makes me ill. Have less of a deviation in temps is easier to adapt too....but I really do prefer cooler room temps. In the winter I keep the house around 68 - 72, which is easy since all I have to do is turn off the heat and maybe open a window or two.

 

[DesertChic]

You two would fit in well w/ my workmates. I have always (even as a child ) been extremely cold natured. I freeze all the time. It is nearly impossible to get me too hot, and if you succeed I can almost garuntee you would be melting by that time. Being cold has always been physically painful to me. If I have enough covers (my bed has multiple blankets year round) I don't mind a cooler sleeping room, but then comes the problem of getting out of bed.

LOL! I used to be like this but I've added some extra padding these past few years and now tend to run warm, unless it's damp outside. I can handle cooler temps with low humidity, but as soon as the air turns cool + damp I'm in trouble.

 

[DesertChic]

One of the questions I often have is how to translate the information about poultry feed that comes from The Industry, where birds are only expected to live a few weeks (Industrial broilers) or a few months (industrial layers), to something that is useful for birds we expect to be healthy & productive for perhaps years.

I LOVE this question! The mechanization of the food industry has increasingly led to the introduction of nutrient sources that are so wholly unnatural to the animals their fed to as to result in massive illness in animals not sent to slaughter while still quite young. This is why I cringe at industry advice. Their advice too often serves as the antithesis to what is needed to raise healthy animals to longevity, and could also result in negative health effects for the humans who keep and consume those animals and their eggs. It's quite the dilemma....for me at least.

 

[Beekissed]

Same here. Studies done in controlled conditions on stock that is nothing like we are raising genetically can't translate very well into the real world of the farm of the smallholder. I discount most of those studies as soon as they start talking about being done on broilers or production layers, as both are genetically inferior to just about any other poultry out there and practically designed for all systems failure after a certain time frame, so are weak in these systems to start with.

Just doesn't apply to our backyard or farm at all unless we are raising those types of animals in those exact conditions. One cannot just use those studies as a blanket answer to all things poultry.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

It's very tricky to quantify the things that we are looking for in our flock, as backyard chicken keepers. To me just feeding chickens soy/corn/wheat plus vitamins would be similar to me living on Ritz crackers and a vitamin pill each day. Would I live? probably, would I be "healthier" on a diet of fruits, vegetables, etc as a source of my nutrients? No doubt. But how do you measure that?
You'd need to do a study that compares the feeding regime between 2 identical flocks. It would be tough to measure things like feather gloss, attitude, vigour- things important to backyard flock keepers but possibly not so much to commercial chicken farmers.

 

[bnjrob]

Quote: Yep. A number of years ago I came across that particular woman online and was not impressed with her. She came across quite arrogant and made recommendations that were directly contradictory to good standards of medical care even though she is not a DVM. I think she was still working on her PhD or had recently finished it and she seemed to have a lot of theoretical knowledge but not much practical experience and she was looking for followers to help boost her career by inserting herself into several bulletin board forums on poultry and farming. Her focus was not one that would work with a small flock, and most especially not with old fashioned birds being kept in a more old fashioned, natural environment. I got sick of her rhetoric, which sounded like it came from the same manual that the idiots at the USDA, the CDC, and commercial poultry producers use. Every time I hear her name now I just cringe.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

If we're looking at industrial research, perhaps the research about keeping the breeding stock is more useful to us "back yarders" or small farmers than the research on the broilers or layers. Or the research from a while back ... when birds were outside eating some grass and bugs and being fed stuff from around the rest of the integrated farm.

To put the recent research of small flock Delawares into perspective, the broiler study used birds from a hatchery, the layer study was funded by Purina (I think ... I'll have to check). From what Delaware breeders believe, the hatchery Delawares don't much resemble the standard for the breed, and I believe they are a mix of breeds including industrial layers and such. Perhaps for those Delawares, and any hatchery-sourced "Heritage" breed, the industrial research is more applicable than it is for old lines of show birds and such.

For someone a few generations into a breeding program, the birds would maybe not resemble industrial birds in many relevant respects. The birds will become increasingly localized with each generation.

There has been some anecdotal study of working with non-industrial Dual Purpose birds ... Buckeyes, actually ... through the Livestock Conservancy. They suggest a specific feeding regimen. Also, there are some other "networks" that exist to promote small flock poultry operations that offer flock certification, help choosing breeders, and instruction about feeding and caring for birds on pasture. Maybe we'll start getting more substantial real-world info from them.

But for now, if I want to know about differences in protein sources in poultry diets, it's the industrial research that has the most info.