BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Fire Ant Farm]

Fire ant farm it's great that Dumbledore is recovering so quickly. I'd say, carry on, but don't overdo the extra feed etc. or you might give him fatty liver disease! He'll benefit from extra complete protein and extra energy but if he's not working any of that off and if it's in excess that could be harmful.

I'm curious about these industrial naked necks. I would guess that they are as close to the SOP naked necks as the cornish x are to cornish and rocks.

Thanks - that's good advice (and actually is similar to what the vet said). The egg will stop once his antibiotics are done (next day or so). He's good about eating the Flock Raiser as his main food, and the "treat" block is hung such that he has to work pretty hard to get little bits off, then chase them in the bedding. (He's feeling well enough to have started to get bored). The weather here is such that I am hopeful that in the next week I'll be able to give him some supervised time outside in a little pen during the day on warm days, but between the wounds and the night time temperatures, I think he'll need to be away from the flock a while (pecking), and sleep indoors until he gets more feathers...

- Ant Farm

 

[Beekissed]

Update on Dumbledore the hero rooster. We're 5 days out form the attack and he's doing very well, bounced back quickly. Please don't laugh, but per the vets' suggestion, he has now had "hydrotherapy" (warm water spray over his wounds) two days in a row, followed by being blown dry - and he LOVES it - it's like he's having a day at the spa. (And yes, it is helping the wounds - he got scraped up pretty badly.)

Anyhow, the reason I bring it up is because through the bath and blow drying, it has become clear exactly how many feathers he lost - he lost a LOT, even more than I thought, along outer surface of both legs and thighs, much of both wings, back of neck and part of upper back, ENTIRE right chest/side, and entire back half of body. (My neighbor had thought multiple chickens had been killed from the number of feathers, so that fits, I suppose). He is starting to grow little fuzz feathers back on his tail nub and back body (looks like a bunny rabbit), but meanwhile, given that this is January, I need to support him the very best I can to not only heal but grow back those feathers as soon as is possible - so, like an extreme winter molt.

He's on Flock Raiser, plus he gets his abx in a scrambled egg every day (divided into two doses). I put some mealworms in his food bowl as a treat, and he has one of those "treat" blocks hanging in his crate to keep him occupied - it consists of mealworms and hulled sunflower seeds.

Any other ideas on added nutrition for feather reconstitution for him? (I guess this could all be rephrased as "What do you do nutrition wise with an extreme molt in the winter time?")

- Ant Farm

Just my old standby, good for rapid hair regrowth and a natural antimicrobial, antifungal, antibacterial, insecticidal, etc. Castor oil. It brings blood to the area, stimulating healing and bringing more nutrition to the skin and hair/feather follicles. It can provide some measure of protection from the elements and insects, while preventing infection.

NuSTock comes in at a close second and can also promote more rapid feather regrowth while protecting the skin.

Some vitamin supplements that also speed healing of skin are Vit. C and folic acid. You can provide both by feeding him apples or even placing ACV in his drinking water.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Regarding the "science" of poultry nutrition, here is an article that traces the history of our understanding of poultry nutrition, and addresses some concerns for the future. It states more accurately what I've been trying to express ... through time, the science of feeding poultry has morphed from attempting to understand what the birds' requirements are, to how to minimize the expense, to how to maximize the productivity. I anticipate that now there will be a shift toward how to address the health of the bird and the nutritional value of the poultry products ... already there has been research into things like how different feeds/feeding strategies can reduce the presence of pathogens in the poultry products, etc., and will include "pastured" poultry (I've seen a study about how to feed slow-growing broilers so they will do more foraging, for example) as well as warehoused poultry (how to build up immunities and such with pre/probiotics and yeast products, for example). http://japr.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/3/567.full

Here is the abstract.
"The NRC Nutrient Requirements of Poultry has been a benchmark publication for the research, judicial, and regulatory communities domestically and abroad since the first published edition in 1944. The poultry scientific community has looked to this publication for benchmark diet formulation. With extraordinary changes in growth and productive potential of modern poultry strains, as well as changes to body composition and egg output, it follows that nutrient needs have changed beyond what the bird can compensate for with increasing intake per unit of BW. Research publications used for amino acid and phosphorus recommendations in the last NRC are now, at best, from 1991 and at worst from 1947. To our collective credit, the poultry science community has published substantial amounts of data in those areas to warrant an update to the ninth revised edition of the NRC Nutrient Requirements of Poultry. Historically, our perception and definition of a nutrient requirement has changed from first being a requirement, as a percent of a diet, to preventing a nutrient deficiency, to now being a requirement to optimize growth or egg production response per unit of nutrient intake. As economics becomes an increasingly more important driver for the implications of research, the scientific community has begun to embrace the concept of return on investment of nutrient used for compositional growth or egg production. As these concepts take shape, the current edition’s format will have to undergo a substantial creative revision; possibly even embracing the concept of modeling of nutrient responses. Funding for such a revision will require a large financial investment from the NRC, the feed industry, commodity associations, as well as time investment by the scientific community."

 

[AnthNDacula]

I find the PWRs to be amazingly feed efficient, with such fine meat fibers and fat marbled throughout, that I can't imagine using any other breed for meat. I had a group of cockerels this year that had more fat on them than I had ever seen on any male bird of any breed I've ever butchered and they got that almost entirely on foraged feed..the older flock wouldn't allow them in the coop at feeding time. Out of all the breeds I've raised, the WRs get the most meaty carcass, the most fat, and on the least amount of feed than all the others. They have a very slow metabolism which allows them to gain weight and keep a large body on very little fuel, which also serves them very well in the winter months.

Until I ate some of these WR, I never really was convinced that one breed of chicken could taste better than another...I've had a tooth on many, many breeds of chicken down through the years and they all tasted pretty much like chicken. It wasn't until I had WR that I realized that, indeed, some chicken is superior to others, both in texture, tenderness, flavor and even appearance of the meat. They even can up differently than other breeds and I'm amazed at the huge difference of the end product, as canning tends to render all chicken into tender, broken down meat fibers. The WRs meat fibers don't break down into strings like the others but still retains extreme tenderness and a juicy quality in every bite.

I don't think it's any mistake the current broiler genetics has drawn heavily from the PWR breed for meat density and quality, though their end product is far from the high quality of the PWR breed/meat.

Sounds like you've got some really spectacular birds. Do you have any pictures of the carcasses showing their breasts?

 

[AnthNDacula]

Regarding the "science" of poultry nutrition, here is an article that traces the history of our understanding of poultry nutrition, and addresses some concerns for the future. It states more accurately what I've been trying to express ... through time, the science of feeding poultry has morphed from attempting to understand what the birds' requirements are, to how to minimize the expense, to how to maximize the productivity. I anticipate that now there will be a shift toward how to address the health of the bird and the nutritional value of the poultry products ... already there has been research into things like how different feeds/feeding strategies can reduce the presence of pathogens in the poultry products, etc., and will include "pastured" poultry (I've seen a study about how to feed slow-growing broilers so they will do more foraging, for example) as well as warehoused poultry (how to build up immunities and such with pre/probiotics and yeast products, for example). http://japr.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/3/567.full

Here is the abstract.
"The NRC Nutrient Requirements of Poultry has been a benchmark publication for the research, judicial, and regulatory communities domestically and abroad since the first published edition in 1944. The poultry scientific community has looked to this publication for benchmark diet formulation. With extraordinary changes in growth and productive potential of modern poultry strains, as well as changes to body composition and egg output, it follows that nutrient needs have changed beyond what the bird can compensate for with increasing intake per unit of BW. Research publications used for amino acid and phosphorus recommendations in the last NRC are now, at best, from 1991 and at worst from 1947. To our collective credit, the poultry science community has published substantial amounts of data in those areas to warrant an update to the ninth revised edition of the NRC Nutrient Requirements of Poultry. Historically, our perception and definition of a nutrient requirement has changed from first being a requirement, as a percent of a diet, to preventing a nutrient deficiency, to now being a requirement to optimize growth or egg production response per unit of nutrient intake. As economics becomes an increasingly more important driver for the implications of research, the scientific community has begun to embrace the concept of return on investment of nutrient used for compositional growth or egg production. As these concepts take shape, the current edition’s format will have to undergo a substantial creative revision; possibly even embracing the concept of modeling of nutrient responses. Funding for such a revision will require a large financial investment from the NRC, the feed industry, commodity associations, as well as time investment by the scientific community."

Thanks so much for that Joyce. I'm going to have to study the Nutrient Requirements of Poultry as I move into my next project of producing Christmas Capons. I'll be getting 25 Silver Gray Dorking cockerels in the spring to sell next fall. It's going to be tricky feeding those birds for 6 to 8 months ..... meeting their nutritional needs and keeping down costs enough to turn a profit. I just met with my butcher to confirm he would process them 7 to 9 days before next Christmas. I've been talking to him for a while about it but wanted a commitment from him before I order the birds. Wish me luck!

 

[dfr1973]

Thanks so much for that Joyce. I'm going to have to study the Nutrient Requirements of Poultry as I move into my next project of producing Christmas Capons. I'll be getting 25 Silver Gray Dorking cockerels in the spring to sell next fall. It's going to be tricky feeding those birds for 6 to 8 months ..... meeting their nutritional needs and keeping down costs enough to turn a profit. I just met with my butcher to confirm he would process them 7 to 9 days before next Christmas. I've been talking to him for a while about it but wanted a commitment from him before I order the birds. Wish me luck!

IMO, for good quality and healthy capons .. feed them like breeder birds, along with time to do some foraging. Dorking (or Wyandotte!) capons are the exact opposite of the CX broiler, and should be fed differently.

 

[Beekissed]

Sounds like you've got some really spectacular birds. Do you have any pictures of the carcasses showing their breasts?

I've got a pic showing a half carcass on a 5 yr old WR hen compared to the full carcass of a RIR/BO cross 3 yr old rooster, if that would serve.

This pic shows an old WR hen cut on the half shell, lying next to the whole carcass of the rooster. This hen had been living on mostly foraged feeds and had been sharing 1.5 c. of fermented feed daily with 13 other LF birds, so not much grain feed going into this bird at the time of butcher or for the few months prior.



If you'll note the more golden color to the breast meat on the hen, that's due to a difference in meat fibers and fat content within those fibers.

The fat these birds can pack on merely on forage always amazes me, especially when viewed next to other birds living on the same feed...

Same hen in all these pics, is typical of all the WRs I've grown here.







What I was shocked to find out was the 5 mo. old cockerels I butchered this fall had large fat stores on them as well, with fat encasing their gizzards much like an old hen's will. I know that I've never butchered a cockerel or rooster that had that much fat stores in my 40 yrs of killing chickens, so these WRs are a whole 'nother breed of cat. I'd never keep them if they ate me out of house and home, so these birds receive minimal grain supplement in good foraging months and less overall nutrition than most people are feeding in the winter months.

For example...these two birds are mother and daughter, daughter is 6 mo. old pullet in this pic. They have been eating 50/50 oats/16% layer mash and a little BOSS this winter, fermented. Each bird gets approx. 1/2 c. feed per day, fed in a daily ration. They also free range at all times and eat the occasional kitchen scraps, mostly salad scraps.



These birds grow and stay big on very little feed and forage like a dream for most of it, so it's a win/win for me.






The biggest problem with these WRs are in not getting them TOO fat, which is hard to control when they stay fat on forage, so the only thing I can do is cut back on the grain based feeds as far as possible when the forage is really rich. There are some months the feed given in the coop is just a token ration, more to make them feel like they had their daily bread than anything else so they'll stop following me around while I'm doing chores. Those are the times when I really have to cut back on how much feed I'm even fermenting, as I'm feeding out so little that it gets over fermented by the time I feed out the bucket.

Those are the times I'm remembering when I have to feed them in the winter time...which I don't begrudge at all because they are so cheaply kept for the rest of the year.

 

[hellbender]

IMO, for good quality and healthy capons .. feed them like breeder birds, along with time to do some foraging. Dorking (or Wyandotte!) capons are the exact opposite of the CX broiler, and should be fed differently.

 

[DesertChic]

Update on Dumbledore the hero rooster. We're 5 days out form the attack and he's doing very well, bounced back quickly. Please don't laugh, but per the vets' suggestion, he has now had "hydrotherapy" (warm water spray over his wounds) two days in a row, followed by being blown dry - and he LOVES it - it's like he's having a day at the spa. (And yes, it is helping the wounds - he got scraped up pretty badly.)

Anyhow, the reason I bring it up is because through the bath and blow drying, it has become clear exactly how many feathers he lost - he lost a LOT, even more than I thought, along outer surface of both legs and thighs, much of both wings, back of neck and part of upper back, ENTIRE right chest/side, and entire back half of body. (My neighbor had thought multiple chickens had been killed from the number of feathers, so that fits, I suppose). He is starting to grow little fuzz feathers back on his tail nub and back body (looks like a bunny rabbit), but meanwhile, given that this is January, I need to support him the very best I can to not only heal but grow back those feathers as soon as is possible - so, like an extreme winter molt.

He's on Flock Raiser, plus he gets his abx in a scrambled egg every day (divided into two doses). I put some mealworms in his food bowl as a treat, and he has one of those "treat" blocks hanging in his crate to keep him occupied - it consists of mealworms and hulled sunflower seeds.

Any other ideas on added nutrition for feather reconstitution for him? (I guess this could all be rephrased as "What do you do nutrition wise with an extreme molt in the winter time?")

- Ant Farm

I'm so glad to hear he's healing well! Though I'm insanely jealous that he gets more spa treatment than I do.

If it were me, I would probably switch out some of the egg and meal worms with shelled sunflower seeds, but in moderation, and add ACV to the water and probiotics to the feed. He's already getting a lot of fat, protein and calories from the flock raiser so I'm not sure that so much supplementation is needed. I'd worry about him packing on too much fat since he's not able to exercise much.

 

[DesertChic]

Just my old standby, good for rapid hair regrowth and a natural antimicrobial, antifungal, antibacterial, insecticidal, etc. Castor oil. It brings blood to the area, stimulating healing and bringing more nutrition to the skin and hair/feather follicles. It can provide some measure of protection from the elements and insects, while preventing infection.

NuSTock comes in at a close second and can also promote more rapid feather regrowth while protecting the skin.

Some vitamin supplements that also speed healing of skin are Vit. C and folic acid. You can provide both by feeding him apples or even placing ACV in his drinking water.

Castor Oil? Do you rub it on the skin or feed it to them?