Breeding for utility value

[al6517]

I don't understand why everybody thinks you can't get a good quality bird that can do it all and still look great and allot better than a hatchery mutt. Yes it can be done and without much effort, although I personaly would never include Hatchery stock as a foundation for any breeding program what so ever, it will be such a waste of time. Just because someone has SQ birds doesn't mean they can't do anything but look pretty, totaly the opposite IMHO.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

In the early 20th C. the Brits applauded the Americans for "not overbreeding for fancy points" in their poultry journals. Now the Americans have gone the same way.

Here are some historic notes:

The Brahma had ceased being a desirable meat bird by the early 20th C. because both meat and protein require feathers. The orginal Brahmas and Cochins bore little resemblance to their "standard bred" descendants.

The White faced black Spanish was a common layer up until the 1880s - at that point breeding for exaggerated, over size white facial characteristics moved them from utility to the show ring; they were once one of the more common farm egg layers. Pictures of the original birds look like an entirely different breed than the modern breed.

The Orpington breeders focused on new colors and heftier birds with more feathers, and the Orpington was replaced on the practical farm with such imports as the AmRock (a Barred Rock strain not bred for fancy points) and others.

The Ancona was a widely used layer until the 1920s-1930s. By the 1940s there were very few breeders left who focused on utility, and the bird fell out of favor because of wide inconsistencies between strains and lower overall utility.

I worry because one of the main reasons that birds seem to become "heritage" is that people forget what the purpose of the bird is supposed to be.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Quote:
Unfortunately, my experience has been very different.

 

[Pyncheon guy]

My breed is an old American breed and it is a Bantam breed...... It was raised over 150 years ago by the New Englanders who had limited space and that wanted to have a pretty, but better than average layer on their homesteads. I've raised exhibition poultry since 1967.......I keep records from my breeding pens..... the birds who lay the most and are closest to the Standard are what I keep...... If I have a hen that only lays 30-40 eggs a year and is very close to the standard...I'll show her...but I will never breed her......I breed for both. Selection, a good eye, and record keeping are most important to me. I think one CAN have their cake AND eat it too..... There is a place in this world for all "Stations" of poultry,.... there will always be someone raising the $2.00 birds and someone raising the $200.00 birds..... neither is better than the other.....I've had both price ranges and both made me happy. I love threads like this.....very informative and helpful to the beginner breeders/raisers. Thanks!

 

[capayvalleychick]

I am raising chickens solely for their utility. I want a good dual purpose fowl. There are lots of other breeds that are more beautiful. Mine are a little boring, as far as looks go. Much as I would love to have some beautiful Sumatra's, I have no real use for them. I can't afford eye candy. Every animal on this ranch has got to have a purpose.
What's important to me is preserving the genetics of useful historic breeds. Because of this, I wasn't interested in showing, at first. When I went to my first poultry show, as a spectator, I couldn't believe how big the large fowl were. Now that I've done some research, I realize that, with my breeds of choice, using the SOP as a guide will improve the meat qualities in my flock. These are breeds whose beauty is still linked to their utility. So, in my case, breeding for show will improve my chicken's utility.

Kim

 

[gjensen]

Quote:
Though I agree with your main point, I have a different perpective on some of the minor points.

I do not believe that the Brahma was stopped being used as a meat bird, because of breeding for exhibition. I believe they were replaced by breeds that were better suited for the purpouse. New Hampshires, Delewares, Plymouth Rock etc.

As far as the Spanish, consider the time period that you noted. Before the turn of the century, many existing breeds did not lay as many eggs as we came to expect later. Many strains of breeds on many farms did not lay more than 120 eggs. Admittingly, management and diet had alot to do with this. At the turn of the century more and more people were moving to the major population centers as we became more industrialized. As this trend continued, the potential to profit from supplying these places became more of a reality. There was a shift, and farmers that specialized in poultry became more and more common. Along with this came a demand for strains/breeds that could maximize their potential profit. Leghornes became one of the breeds of choice, and were developed accordingly. For brown eggs, specialized strains of NHs, Rhode Island Reds, Australorps etc. Economics, and the motivation for profit changed the scene. Before it was small farms with a flock that rustled up alot of their own feed to meet the needs of a family +. We also put more emphasis in diet and managent. Money was the motivator. It usually is.

The Ancona lost it's place to the Leghorne, but seamed to keep it's favor among some. Their slip seams to me more gradual. Let me add here, that I am no historian or expert. These are impressions that I have based on what I have read. I agree with the time periods, but I disagree with why these things changed.

The reasons these breeds become "heritage", is a matter of practical economics. Supply and demand. These breeds cost more to raise for meat or eggs. In many cases, if not for enthusiasts or breeders that exhibited their birds, they would be extinct instead of "heritage". Right now, there is only going to be so may Frank Reese's out there. I know if I tried to sell 30.00 or 40.00 dressed birds in my area, I would not stay in business long.

The ALBC's "heritage" effort seams to me an attempt to aid developing a market for these birds. Put them back to work so to speak. It is a label, not as much for the enthusiast as it is the general public. A way to market poultry products from farmers that choose to work with some of our older breeds. Similar to the organic label. I think it is a good effort, and I haven't seen a better one. They are promoting the selection for utility, and many are doing it.

I intend to try my hand at breeding a few birds. For the most part, through the years, I have had a few birds around. I have only recently decided to take it more seriously. I expect to do this for a long time. We will see how I do in the long run. I will want them to perform well, so selecting for utility will be a primary concern. Still, I want my birds to be good examples of the breed. Why, would I want any less? If I try my hand at NHs, I want them to perform and look like NHs. Others will judge whether or not I am succesful.

Breeding for utility is a good thread idea. I think it should be general and open though. There are some that work with pure breeds. Others prefer modern hybrids. Still, others that like experimenting. I am interested in all of them. We all have different interests and goals.

Forgive the rambling. Just my thoughts.

 

[janchilds]

Fred's Hens:

I would be curious as to how you select for production.

We have a flock of around 100 birds and would like to double that. We sell eggs locally year round at farmers markets so production is very important to us. Sustainable farming is also very important to us. Last year I evaluated every breed we have on pasture and choose only those who bring something to our program, i.e. being able to thrive in our set-up, egg production (some stong layers in the heat, some strong layers in the cold), egg color, temperament, and a little variety in the field. Over the next two years I would like for us to transition into raising all of our own stock. (Realizing that we will need to bring in new blood every so often).

I am in the process of locating breeders of quality stock, those I think breed to the standard and have true representatives of that breed. But it scares me a little in how few know if their chickens are producing above breed averages.

I haven't gotten too far on how to determine our best layers given the size of our operation. We will be setting up 3 breeding pens this spring so we can rotate which breeds are are collecting eggs from to hatch. My first thought is that those hens producing well will give us the most hatching eggs. But that only represents a given time frame, so a hen that lays a few less while collecting eggs may actually have a longer laying period and be more productive overall.

I would love to hear how you go about selecting for production.

Just as an FYI here are the breeds we chose and why. The first three are all utility lines. I am hoping to find pure bloodlines, and cross a rooster true to breed type with my girls that I know are producing well.

RIR - great production, reliable layers (environmental stress doesn't seem to bother them as much), winter hardy
Blk Australorps - great production, have been great layers in heat
White Leghorns - very efficient birds, early maturing, some of our best layers, especially in the coldest part of the winter (just to brag on these under appreciated birds we had 12 hens supplying 1/3 of our eggs last winter!)
Light Sussex - wanted a light brown egg for the mix, still undecided on egg production, and I'll admit it, I like the look of them in the field, I read somewhere that they are suppose to be the best of the Sussex in egg production
Ameraucanas - egg color, ours have produced fairly well although they can be slower to mature, have laid well even in winter
Welsummers - had to have a dark egg layer, are suppose to be great foragers and the best layers of dark eggs, ours are young still and were a little slow maturing
BCM - just had to have a few - love the egg color, only have 3 hens, we'll see

And I am thinking of adding Marraduna Basque - beautiful birds that lay XL eggs, sounds like production is about equal to the Sussex, are suppose to be very winter hardy, and again, I'll admit I think they are very pretty as well.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Trap nests are a good place to start. I am following Professor James Dryden's advice in Poultry Breeding and Management. His techniques produced the first documented 300 egg per year hen; he also bred an early long distance laying champion who laid her thousandth egg at early in her sixth year of lay.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

It depends on your goals. And it depends a whole lot on the ability of the breeder and how many chicks they hatch per year. Most chicks from show quality parents are not show quality, even from the best of breeders. You have to hatch a lot of chicks to choose from. That's why some breeders won't sell hatching eggs or chicks. They know most of the chicks will not be up to their standards and they want to protect their reputations. Others will sell eggs or chicks for their own very legitimate reasons. A lot of these chicks will be closer to the standards than hatchery chicks, but they can still have flaws that will keep them from winning th egrand championship.

Assuming the breeder is good, show quality birds are superior for "show" qualities and utilitarian birds are superior for their intended purposes, whether meat or eggs. I'm not aware of any modern utilitarian breed recognized by APA or such. I'm talking about the commercial broilers or the commercial egg layers, like the Dekalb. Fred may prove ne wrong on that statement.

Some people apparently have the idea that in the olden days, every backyard or farm flock consisted of show quality purebred chickens laying eggs art a fantstic rate and growing into meat birds in just a few weeks. Not the case. Different breeds were developed for different purposes, but many of the older utilitarian breeds were first developed for that utilitarian purpose, then people wanted to show them. So certain traits were then set down on paper and recognized so peope could copmpete against each other. Sometimes the traits they chose were utilitarian in purpose, like the feather color of a Delaware or a New Hampshire. A meat bird with light colored feathers gives a prettier plucked carcass. But then look at all the various colors and patterns of the Wyandottes or Rocks. Most of those were developed for show, not for utility.

I find the history of the development of the Ameraucana fascinating.

http://www.ameraucana.org/history.html

There are breeders out there that are trying to breed to the show quality qualities but also for the original utilitarian purposes of the breed, but good luck finding them. But don't get confused into thinking that show quality translates into utility. In general, show quality is just eye candy.

Back to your specific question. I don't work for both goals with my birds. I could care less whether they have show quality characteristics. I will never show my birds. I'm breeding dual purpose hatchery birds for meat and eggs. The egg laying is pretty well already there from most hatchery dual purpose birds, but the size and rate of growth for meat is not all that consistent. But through a few genetions of choosing my breeders, the size and rate of growth improves. I mainly eat my smaller poor performing roosters and hens and breed the ones that come closer to my standards. I hatch less than 50 birds a year, so my improvement is slow, but it is there. My culls are getting better every year.

For the vast majority of people on this forum, hatchery birds will meet their goals. Good egg laying and pretty birds with reasonable personality. Most of the dual purpose hatchery birds will make plenty of meat for the few of us that grow them for meat, but they won't touch the broilers for the amount of meat produced. They won't meet the standards of the commercial egg laying breeds , but for the majority of people, they are certainly good enough.

In the old days the average flock was composed of dunghills and most of the hens in America laid no more than eighty eggs a year! I'm just trying to discuss utility birds; my new show breeders are an entirely separate matter and I don't expect high production from them. For one thing, they are a multi-purpose rustic farm fowl from a country where being able to evade predators and find food to survive were very high priorities.