breeding frizzles, satins, and showgirls?

EnnieM0097

In the Brooder
Jan 29, 2023
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I'm turning most of my focus to breeding silkies. while I have researched, and further will, I'm looking for your personal experience and opinions. this site has helped me shape my entire program so far! (photo of my Delores, because she's sweet.)

the genetics of satins and frizzles.

1. what % will turn out with each feather type? when bred to smoothes, showgirls, and/or eachother?

2. can chicks be silent carriers of either?

3. can a seemingly smooth chick turn out frizzled or satin (as I know it can work the other way around)?

4. frizzles shouldn't be bred with frizzles - can satins be bred with satins?

5. smooth roos and fancy girls, or fancy roo and smooth girls? (I do have a bachelor pad. roos will only ever be there, or with their trio/quad.)

6. and MOST importantly - those that breed any/all - DO THEY SELL? HOW WELL? is it worth breeding many, or am I better off breeding a few and sticking mostly with smooths? while we're at it... what are your best selling colors? (not looking to steal your projects!) while I like to think people want the "different" birds, maybe that's all in my head. thank you in advance - much love and appreciation!
 

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Satins are simply the result of a bird who does not have enough silkied genes to express silkied feathering. In other words, they're not a specific gene, but instead the absence of two copies of the silkied gene. Satins may have one silkied gene, or they could have zero. Silkied feathering is recessive, so requires two copies to express.

Frizzles, on the other hand, are a result of a partially dominant gene. One copy makes frizzling, two makes extreme frizzling and birds with two copies are known as 'Frazzles'.

The naked neck gene is partially dominant as well, where one copy makes naked necks with a tuft on the front of the neck known as a 'bowtie' by some, and two copies makes naked neck without that tuft on the front of the neck, known as 'stripper' showgirls.

None will be carried silently, but the silkied gene can be carried by any of them without expressing because, as I mentioned earlier, silkied is a recessive gene.

Assuming your Satins came from one silkied parent, they will be guaranteed to carry the silkied gene. Breeding them back to a Silkie will get you equal numbers of Silkies and Satins in the offspring. Breeding them to each other will get you 25% Silkies, 50% Satins carrying the silkied gene, and 25% Satins not carrying the silkied gene, with no way of telling a carrier from a non-carrier. Satins that do not carry the silkied gene cannot make silkied offspring regardless of who they're bred to. If you're okay with producing these non-silkied-gene-carrying Satins, then it's perfectly fine to breed Satin to Satin.

For frizzling, breeding a frizzled bird to a smooth bird gets you equal numbers frizzled and smooth in the offspring. Breeding frizzled to frizzled gets you 25% smooth, 50% frizzled, and 25% frazzled. This is strongly advised against because frazzles have numerous issues from a double dose of the gene, including brittle feathering, enlargement of the heart and rapid heart rate, malformation of the adrenal and thyroid gland, all generally resulting in a shortened lifespan. Because of this, you definitely want to only breed frizzle to smooth.

For the naked neck gene, breeding 'bowtie' to 'bowtie' gives you 25% 'stripper', 50% 'bowtie', and 25% fully feathered. Bowtie to either stripper or fully feathered makes 50% bowtie and 50% whichever type it was bred to. Stripper to stripper only makes stripper offspring, and stripper to fully feathered only makes bowtie offspring. There are no issues associated with breeding any of these types together.

Which parent is silkied, frizzled, satin, or naked neck does not make a difference to your breeding program as none of these genes are sexlinked. Pick the best and pair them accordingly. 🙂

As far as chicks looking one way and turning out another, a chick that develops frizzled feathering is definitely frizzled. I understand silkied versus smooth being a bit trickier just with wing feathers, but once they start getting feathers elsewhere like on the shoulders and thighs, you know for sure by those feathers if they're silkied or smooth, at least in my experience.

I can't offer any help as far as how well they sell as I have no experience there, but I hope I've covered everything else adequately. Let me know if I missed a question or if you'd like me to clarify anything, though! 😁
 
Satins are simply the result of a bird who does not have enough silkied genes to express silkied feathering. In other words, they're not a specific gene, but instead the absence of two copies of the silkied gene. Satins may have one silkied gene, or they could have zero. Silkied feathering is recessive, so requires two copies to express.

Frizzles, on the other hand, are a result of a partially dominant gene. One copy makes frizzling, two makes extreme frizzling and birds with two copies are known as 'Frazzles'.

The naked neck gene is partially dominant as well, where one copy makes naked necks with a tuft on the front of the neck known as a 'bowtie' by some, and two copies makes naked neck without that tuft on the front of the neck, known as 'stripper' showgirls.

None will be carried silently, but the silkied gene can be carried by any of them without expressing because, as I mentioned earlier, silkied is a recessive gene.

Assuming your Satins came from one silkied parent, they will be guaranteed to carry the silkied gene. Breeding them back to a Silkie will get you equal numbers of Silkies and Satins in the offspring. Breeding them to each other will get you 25% Silkies, 50% Satins carrying the silkied gene, and 25% Satins not carrying the silkied gene, with no way of telling a carrier from a non-carrier. Satins that do not carry the silkied gene cannot make silkied offspring regardless of who they're bred to. If you're okay with producing these non-silkied-gene-carrying Satins, then it's perfectly fine to breed Satin to Satin.

For frizzling, breeding a frizzled bird to a smooth bird gets you equal numbers frizzled and smooth in the offspring. Breeding frizzled to frizzled gets you 25% smooth, 50% frizzled, and 25% frazzled. This is strongly advised against because frazzles have numerous issues from a double dose of the gene, including brittle feathering, enlargement of the heart and rapid heart rate, malformation of the adrenal and thyroid gland, all generally resulting in a shortened lifespan. Because of this, you definitely want to only breed frizzle to smooth.

For the naked neck gene, breeding 'bowtie' to 'bowtie' gives you 25% 'stripper', 50% 'bowtie', and 25% fully feathered. Bowtie to either stripper or fully feathered makes 50% bowtie and 50% whichever type it was bred to. Stripper to stripper only makes stripper offspring, and stripper to fully feathered only makes bowtie offspring. There are no issues associated with breeding any of these types together.

Which parent is silkied, frizzled, satin, or naked neck does not make a difference to your breeding program as none of these genes are sexlinked. Pick the best and pair them accordingly. 🙂

As far as chicks looking one way and turning out another, a chick that develops frizzled feathering is definitely frizzled. I understand silkied versus smooth being a bit trickier just with wing feathers, but once they start getting feathers elsewhere like on the shoulders and thighs, you know for sure by those feathers if they're silkied or smooth, at least in my experience.

I can't offer any help as far as how well they sell as I have no experience there, but I hope I've covered everything else adequately. Let me know if I missed a question or if you'd like me to clarify anything, though! 😁
This is such great info, thank you!

I have a satin with one silkie parent. Bred her to a frizzled cochin bantam and a smooth Cochin bantam. Will any of the chicks that turn out frizzle or smooth carry a silkie gene?
 
Yes, about 25% of the offspring with her bred by either Cochin should carry the gene for silkied feathering, the remaining 75% not carrying the gene. There's no visual way of telling which carry the gene and which do not, however, so the only way to figure out which of the offspring do carry it is to test-cross them to a silkie-feathered bird.
 
Yes, about 25% of the offspring with her bred by either Cochin should carry the gene for silkied feathering, the remaining 75% not carrying the gene. There's no visual way of telling which carry the gene and which do not, however, so the only way to figure out which of the offspring do carry it is to test-cross them to a silkie-feathered bird.
Ok, Good to know thank you!!
It just so happens I got a young silkie feathered rooster and was thinking of picking my best Silkie type chicks from these 2 Cochin breedings and breed them to this new guy once he grows up a bit. 👍🏼 So to make sure I’m following, of the 25% of the offspring that do carry the gene and get bred to a silkie feathered roo, would their babies all turn out silkie feathered? That’s how I will know if their mom is a 25%er or not?
 
No, a bird that is not silkied but just carrying the gene has a 50-50 shot of passing it on. That means that about half of their offspring when bred with a silkie-feathered individual would be silkie-feathered as well, while the other half would be smooth and carrying the gene. So you'd want to hatch several from each hen to test that.
 
No, a bird that is not silkied but just carrying the gene has a 50-50 shot of passing it on. That means that about half of their offspring when bred with a silkie-feathered individual would be silkie-feathered as well, while the other half would be smooth and carrying the gene. So you'd want to hatch several from each hen to test that.
Oooooooh, NOW I get it, thank you!
 

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