Those that are laying should have dark red combs.
Breeding from hatchery stock
- Thread starter Redhead Rae
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #12
But how do you tell how many eggs a single hen lays so you can breed the best layers?
It can be tricky, especially with birds that are all the same breed. Some use leg tags to distinguish individuals. Nest traps can hold hens in to see who is laying.
I keep multiple breeds in order to know each one. I do have multiple of some breeds but not so many that I can't tell them apart. I can always see who's laying and most I can tell their eggs by the shape and color.
A single breed flock can be tricky without some means to tell them apart.
I keep multiple breeds in order to know each one. I do have multiple of some breeds but not so many that I can't tell them apart. I can always see who's laying and most I can tell their eggs by the shape and color.
A single breed flock can be tricky without some means to tell them apart.
mich9510
Songster
I've never heard this before. I feel kind of stupid now... I was wondering how to tell who was laying. I know my biggest pullet with the largest, most red comb is for sure laying since I've seen her do it but never put 2 and 2 together. Duh.
- May 19, 2009
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Hi Rae,' Well I can tell you have been studying and you are asking all the right questions. because of the breed you have chosen, your foundation gene pool is a bit problematic but that can be fixed with some judicious breeding.
Here's the bad news first, then the good news, smile. Hatchery Buff Orpingtons are never gonna give you the Standardbred birds you are liking. Buff is a tough color to breed correctly so your color is going to be off. Kinda a poor sister to what it should really look like which is a shiny new gold coin. There will be a lot of genetic diversity in the gene pool of the birds. More than you will want and you will find them not as big or dimensional as the standard bred Buff Orpingtons. They will probably lay a lot of eggs for you at that is what the hatcheries strive for. A bird that kinda looks like the breed, sans the minor breed hallmarks and which lays a lot of eggs.
Ok, that's the bad news.
Now here's the good news. You can "grade up" these birds into a nice looking flock. Chickens can stand a lot of inbreeding because of their wide genetic base and the large number of sex-linked genes.
Here is a time tested method which works with multiple species. be it puppies or chicks the result, if you chose wisely each generation will be much better birds, much more closely resembling the proper Buff Orpingtons.
see the next post below for the plan.
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- May 19, 2009
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Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
The breeding plan to grade up your birds from pages 14 thru 16 of "Breeding Laws":
2017: Get your grown show quality male. It's essential he must be of very high quality.
This whole thing revolves around his quality and your ability to choose babies wisely.
A 2 year old cock is good because you ae goign to be breeding him to pullets
, not hens. Breed him to your best female.
The resulting chicks have 1/2 the blood of h sire and 1/2 the blood of the dam.
2018: Take the best female from the 2017 breeding and breed her back to her sire.
Take the best son and breed it back to his dam.
The grandson now carries 3/4's of the blood of the original dam.
The granddaughter now carries 3/4's of the blood of the original sire.
2019: Take the best female from 2018 and breed her back to the original male in 2017.
She now carries 7/8th's of the blood of her sire. Take the best male and breed it back
to the original dam. He now carries 7/8's the blood of the original dam.
2020: Now we are at a point where we retire the original sire and dam.
A line is now started. Now we are going to cross the 2 sides we have been breeding separately up to now.
Take the best cockerel from the dam side and breed him to the best girl from the sire side.
2021: Start the breeding scenario of seasons 2017 thru 2019 over again in the years 2021, 2022 and 2023.
By now (2024) you won't need any more advice but if you do, you will find it by the author on page 16 of
his "Breeding Laws" book along with instructions on how to properly choose your best breeders in any generation.
Best,
Karen.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
The breeding plan to grade up your birds from pages 14 thru 16 of "Breeding Laws":
2017: Get your grown show quality male. It's essential he must be of very high quality.
This whole thing revolves around his quality and your ability to choose babies wisely.
A 2 year old cock is good because you ae goign to be breeding him to pullets
, not hens. Breed him to your best female.
The resulting chicks have 1/2 the blood of h sire and 1/2 the blood of the dam.
2018: Take the best female from the 2017 breeding and breed her back to her sire.
Take the best son and breed it back to his dam.
The grandson now carries 3/4's of the blood of the original dam.
The granddaughter now carries 3/4's of the blood of the original sire.
2019: Take the best female from 2018 and breed her back to the original male in 2017.
She now carries 7/8th's of the blood of her sire. Take the best male and breed it back
to the original dam. He now carries 7/8's the blood of the original dam.
2020: Now we are at a point where we retire the original sire and dam.
A line is now started. Now we are going to cross the 2 sides we have been breeding separately up to now.
Take the best cockerel from the dam side and breed him to the best girl from the sire side.
2021: Start the breeding scenario of seasons 2017 thru 2019 over again in the years 2021, 2022 and 2023.
By now (2024) you won't need any more advice but if you do, you will find it by the author on page 16 of
his "Breeding Laws" book along with instructions on how to properly choose your best breeders in any generation.
Best,
Karen.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #17
3riverschick - Thanks so much for that exhaustive explanation. Question, is it possible to speed up the breeding process by hatching some chicks in an incubator over the winter?
It is really hard to sort out the best birds....banding would be the first step.
Many multiples of pens to sort out birds and control breeding's would be also be necessary IMO.
Trap nesting is more complicated, both to build and also labor intensive to employ, but it's the most effective.
Record keeping would be arduous, but again necessary if you really want to 'control' your breeding's.
Telling what birds are laying is pretty easy, once you get the hang of it.
This is my 'go to', not a finite measurement but can be very effective.
Vent Appearance:
Dry, tight, and smaller - usually not laying.
Moist, wide, and larger - usually laying.
Pelvic Points 2 bony points(pelvic bones) on either side of vent:
Less than 2 fingertip widths apart usually means not laying.
More than 2 fingertip widths apart usually means laying.
Just some thoughts on the logistics.
Many multiples of pens to sort out birds and control breeding's would be also be necessary IMO.
Trap nesting is more complicated, both to build and also labor intensive to employ, but it's the most effective.
Record keeping would be arduous, but again necessary if you really want to 'control' your breeding's.
Telling what birds are laying is pretty easy, once you get the hang of it.
This is my 'go to', not a finite measurement but can be very effective.
Vent Appearance:
Dry, tight, and smaller - usually not laying.
Moist, wide, and larger - usually laying.
Pelvic Points 2 bony points(pelvic bones) on either side of vent:
Less than 2 fingertip widths apart usually means not laying.
More than 2 fingertip widths apart usually means laying.
Just some thoughts on the logistics.
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Or you could just enjoy your flock, culling the birds that don't meet your standard for temperament, body and feather conformation, and hatching the best eggs from them. Continue from there, with the same criteria each year. Certainly not as exhaustive as a standard breeding program, but IMO, a lot more fun.
You said you wanted them for eggs, meat, and incubator birds with good dispositions. I don’t see proper color for the breed as a criteria. The more traits you breed for the more complicated it becomes so try to restrict the choices to things that are important to you.
My goals are different from yours. I want mottled black and various shades of mottled red or buff colored chickens that lay green eggs. I raise mine for meat but size isn’t a huge criteria since I hatch as many females as males and half of what I eat are female. Females are just not that big, but since there are only two of us we can still make two meals out of one fairly small hen or pullet even if the second meal is soup with leftover meat. When I select which cockerel to keep I do select the larger faster-maturing ones but behavior counts more. I try to select pullets that lay larger eggs and that lay a fair amount but that’s not my highest priority. I get a lot more eggs than we eat so I give away my excess. Still, I want them to lay well enough that when I’m collecting eggs to incubate I can collect enough relatively soon to cut down on storage time. I also try to hatch eggs from hens that go broody. Almost all of mine go broody at least once a year now. That certainly wasn’t the case when I started out.
I’m more complicated than I suggest you start out. Try to keep it as simple as you can, at least to start.
I started with hatchery stock and tried to select breeders for what I wanted. If a rooster showed human aggression or was unduly rough with his hens, he was not allowed to breed, he was replaced. I also hold hens responsible. I had one turn egg-eater, that was an easy choice. A pullet continued to lay from the roost for two months after she started to lay. It took a long time to figure out which one that was but when I finally did, she was gone. When hens went barebacked, they were gone. Most people blame the rooster for that but I find that if I eliminate barebacked hens from my breeding flock, following generations don’t go barebacked. One broody hen killed a few of her chicks as they hatched, none of her eggs were hatched. Hens that disrupt the calmness and serenity of the flock do not contribute hatching eggs. That could be hens that don’t accept the dominance of the rooster or hens that are particularly vicious to other hens or younger chicks. I had one (for a short time) that regularly escaped the run. I’ve made behavior a really high priority and have a flock where the roosters and hens are pretty well behaved. A friend called me ruthless in the way I managed them so I thanked her for the compliment.
Trying to determine which hen laid which egg can be a big challenge, even with my multicolored multipatterned flock. I use colored zip ties on the legs to help with recordkeeping, but when they are on the nest you can’t see those. I’ve found that just because a hen is on a nest she did not necessarily lay the egg that is there, it may have already been there or she may move to a different nest to actually lay her egg. I made some of my nests so I can lock a hen in there. That’s actually come in handy for several different things. When I find a hen on the nest I lock her in one of those nests, sometimes moving one from a nest I can’t lock. I check to make sure there are no other eggs in with her, then check back regularly to see if she has laid the egg. That usually takes a half hour but some can go longer, much longer. I keep written records.
Hens tend to lay eggs the same size, general shape, and color. Some regularly put some kind of markings on them, usually spots. With my small flock of laying/breeding hens I can sometimes tell which hen laid a certain egg, but often not. I don’t do it but I should, it makes it a lot simpler, but an easy way around this is to build a breeding pen to house the rooster and hens you want to hatch the eggs from when you are collecting. That way you know you are only hatching eggs you want to hatch.
How many chickens do you want to eat in a year? Will you be eating just the males or all of them? That will determine how many you need to hatch. How are you going to preserve the meat after you butcher? Some people pressure can the meat but most of us freeze it. How much freezer space will you have, that may determine how often you need to butcher and may affect how many you hatch at a time and how often you hatch. I eat one chicken a week but with various other activities like visiting grandkids, I only need to hatch 42 to 45 chicks a year.
Even with hens that go broody a lot I cannot depend on broody hens to keep me in meat. I only keep 6 to 8 breeding/laying hens in my flock and they certainly do not go broody when I need them. With my garden freezer space is often limited too. I normally have one or two incubator hatches early then depend on my broody hens in the summer to reach my final number. I’m collecting eggs right now for my first incubator hatch of the year.
In my opinion you don’t need breeder stock for what you say you want to do. If you were going to show your chickens that would be a totally different story, good breeder stock is pretty much a requirement. BO’s have a tendency to go broody so some of your hatchery stock should. BO’s are decent dual purpose birds. You’ll have some challenges, things never work out exactly as planned, but I think you are headed in the right direction.
Good luck!
My goals are different from yours. I want mottled black and various shades of mottled red or buff colored chickens that lay green eggs. I raise mine for meat but size isn’t a huge criteria since I hatch as many females as males and half of what I eat are female. Females are just not that big, but since there are only two of us we can still make two meals out of one fairly small hen or pullet even if the second meal is soup with leftover meat. When I select which cockerel to keep I do select the larger faster-maturing ones but behavior counts more. I try to select pullets that lay larger eggs and that lay a fair amount but that’s not my highest priority. I get a lot more eggs than we eat so I give away my excess. Still, I want them to lay well enough that when I’m collecting eggs to incubate I can collect enough relatively soon to cut down on storage time. I also try to hatch eggs from hens that go broody. Almost all of mine go broody at least once a year now. That certainly wasn’t the case when I started out.
I’m more complicated than I suggest you start out. Try to keep it as simple as you can, at least to start.
I started with hatchery stock and tried to select breeders for what I wanted. If a rooster showed human aggression or was unduly rough with his hens, he was not allowed to breed, he was replaced. I also hold hens responsible. I had one turn egg-eater, that was an easy choice. A pullet continued to lay from the roost for two months after she started to lay. It took a long time to figure out which one that was but when I finally did, she was gone. When hens went barebacked, they were gone. Most people blame the rooster for that but I find that if I eliminate barebacked hens from my breeding flock, following generations don’t go barebacked. One broody hen killed a few of her chicks as they hatched, none of her eggs were hatched. Hens that disrupt the calmness and serenity of the flock do not contribute hatching eggs. That could be hens that don’t accept the dominance of the rooster or hens that are particularly vicious to other hens or younger chicks. I had one (for a short time) that regularly escaped the run. I’ve made behavior a really high priority and have a flock where the roosters and hens are pretty well behaved. A friend called me ruthless in the way I managed them so I thanked her for the compliment.
Trying to determine which hen laid which egg can be a big challenge, even with my multicolored multipatterned flock. I use colored zip ties on the legs to help with recordkeeping, but when they are on the nest you can’t see those. I’ve found that just because a hen is on a nest she did not necessarily lay the egg that is there, it may have already been there or she may move to a different nest to actually lay her egg. I made some of my nests so I can lock a hen in there. That’s actually come in handy for several different things. When I find a hen on the nest I lock her in one of those nests, sometimes moving one from a nest I can’t lock. I check to make sure there are no other eggs in with her, then check back regularly to see if she has laid the egg. That usually takes a half hour but some can go longer, much longer. I keep written records.
Hens tend to lay eggs the same size, general shape, and color. Some regularly put some kind of markings on them, usually spots. With my small flock of laying/breeding hens I can sometimes tell which hen laid a certain egg, but often not. I don’t do it but I should, it makes it a lot simpler, but an easy way around this is to build a breeding pen to house the rooster and hens you want to hatch the eggs from when you are collecting. That way you know you are only hatching eggs you want to hatch.
How many chickens do you want to eat in a year? Will you be eating just the males or all of them? That will determine how many you need to hatch. How are you going to preserve the meat after you butcher? Some people pressure can the meat but most of us freeze it. How much freezer space will you have, that may determine how often you need to butcher and may affect how many you hatch at a time and how often you hatch. I eat one chicken a week but with various other activities like visiting grandkids, I only need to hatch 42 to 45 chicks a year.
Even with hens that go broody a lot I cannot depend on broody hens to keep me in meat. I only keep 6 to 8 breeding/laying hens in my flock and they certainly do not go broody when I need them. With my garden freezer space is often limited too. I normally have one or two incubator hatches early then depend on my broody hens in the summer to reach my final number. I’m collecting eggs right now for my first incubator hatch of the year.
In my opinion you don’t need breeder stock for what you say you want to do. If you were going to show your chickens that would be a totally different story, good breeder stock is pretty much a requirement. BO’s have a tendency to go broody so some of your hatchery stock should. BO’s are decent dual purpose birds. You’ll have some challenges, things never work out exactly as planned, but I think you are headed in the right direction.
Good luck!
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