Breeding Golden Duckwing Marans

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by cowman1970, May 2, 2013.

  1. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    Quote: You need to buy the book "The Genetics of Chicken Colors, The Basics". It is a great help with these Duckwing colors. I had Duckwing from Bob's T's Carlson line. They hatched out Golden Duckwing, no Golden Salmon. Lynnrae has been breeding duckwing Marans for circa a decade. Alecia got some of her Silver Duckwing from me. She has been dedicated to the duckwings for quite a while now.
    You need to be very careful about letting melanizers creep into your flock. Melanin is a very "sticky" gene and very tough to breed out. See post number 5, the 5th and 6th birds. They are melanized. See the blacker spots scattered about their plumage? Cannot use them. If you do, you will get a spangled Mille fleur effect and have to cull the chicks. ( been there, seen that). There are not hypostatic genes in Golden Salmon. There is only the Silver gene modifying Silver Salmon. Every other gene ruins the palette.
    Karen
    P.S. There is also a section on Golden Salmon in the Premium area of the Marans of America Club. There is an International Commission for Golden and Silver Salmon established by the French Marans Club. You can join it for free and use Google Translator to read the info and communicate with them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  2. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    This bird is a Red Shouldered Silver Duckwing (RSSD). It is also Melanized as seen by the "shiny black spots" in the dark plumage and the fact the wing triangle isn't all silver but striped with pure black. ( in this color variety the wing triangle should be silver, tinted with another hue. See pic in Post 16.) A Golden Duckwing has a golden hackle. The "golden" seen in this bird's hackle is from the cream accenting of the silver hackle caused by the autosomal red in the RSSD. I had an RSSD show up out of a hatch whose parents were Terwillinger Carlson Golden Duckwings.
    What is the difference between a Golden Duckwing and a Red Shouldered Silver Duckwing?: Per "Genetics of Chicken Colours, The Basics":
    1. Golden Duckwing, Page 191: e+ e+ S/S Ar+/Ar+ (Di/Di in hen ; e+ e+ S/S Ar+/ar+ (Di/Di) in cock
    Variety made by combining Silver and autosomal red, Dilute often present, but not essential. Hackle striping shows much variation in this variety ( Note from Karen: The Golden Salmon cock must not have any hackle striping at all).
    2. Red Shouldered Silver Duckwing, Page 208: e+e+ S/S Ar+/Ar+ . (other names: Autosomal red silver Bankiva partridge; Red shouldered silver partridge). A Silver Duckwing with Autosomal Red which colors shoulder orange, hackle and saddle of rooster a cream color (selection). red shouldered hens have more intense salmon colored breast, for rest they must be identical to "normal" Silver Duckwings.
    3. Red Gold Duckwing ( The Golden Salmon) In the book called Wild Brown , Page 217: e+e+ s+/s+ (selection) A primitive Duckwing in which no demands are made, except for the ground colour of the hen. Genetic makeup is identical to the Gold Duckwing partridge , just looks different on this breed.
    All credit for above information to Van Dort , Hancox and Friends " The Genetics of Chicken Colours ; The Basics". Available from the author (website). http://www.chickencolours.com/pagina3.html
    ( Note from Karen: There is your clue on how to proceed... selecting for the ground color of the hen. Not the rooster, the hen. In Duckwing, your cocks can hide unwanted genes in their palette, especially if they are descended from Black Copper Marans. the hen reveals all. If you get the hens breeding true, then you are getting somewhere. If you hens aren't breeding true, your cocks are hiding something they are passing on, even if you cannot see it visually .
    Here is an excellent example: This is Alvin, who feathered out a stunning Golden Salmon colored cock. http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/apps/photos/
    However, Alvin was really from a heterozygous locus base!! He was eb (Brown)/e+ (Wildtype) as seen from his chick picture (left chick) which clearly shows the brown helmet of the eb based chick. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MaransLibrary/?yguid=334439567

    You need to be able to discuss Duckwing colours by their genetic formulas to breed these colors. The uneasy genetic alliance between Wheaten, Black-Tailed Buff, and Golden Salmon makes this necessary...in addition to needing to explain to experts any unwanted modifying genes which have shown up in your birds when making breeding plans. I found hobby names only confuse and irritate the experts because they say nothing about the genetic content of the bird. There are so few correct pics of them on the Net, in order to discuss with color experts you must know the formulas and how they manifest correctly (or not) on your birds.
    Genetic Lit on GS from my website: http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/geneticliterature.htm
    Note: the original title was : " Genetics of Chicken Colors for Dummies" by Sigird Van Dort. It was changed before publication to , "Genetics of Chicken Colours ; The Basics" by Van Dort, Hancox and Friends.
    The classic descriptive name for the Golden Salmon is "The Black Breasted Red cock with the salmon-breasted, stippled hen". I see on the gen lit page I made a type can wrote black crested red. That is incorrect, it is BBR.
    Best Regards,
    Karen
    Waterford English Light Sussex
    in western PA, USA
    Former Director of Archives, Marans of America Club

    P.S. Note the Golden Salmon hen is a stippled bird. This is why it is not a good idea to use the term "Partridge" when discussing Golden Salmon. The term "Partridge" has long also been associated with penciled plumage. Penciled and stippled plumage have different minor breeding laws as you can see in Judge Card's book: http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312 starting on Page 36.
    It is also instructive to read ( Google Books) the history of breeding of Dark and Light Brown Leghorns when they were doubled mated ( before they decided to single mate them circa the early 1920's). Dark Leghorns have a penciled hen. Light Leghorns have a stippled hen. The articles can be confusing at times, trying to figure out which color they are discussing, however, the end result is a new appreciation for the differences in color mating the 2 varieties (penciled vs stippled). Also instructive is enlightenment on the effect of the color and hue of the cock's hackle on the color of the hen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  3. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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    just need to watch.
    I need to find that book.
     
  4. cowman1970

    cowman1970 Out Of The Brooder

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    Does anyone have a pic of a correct Silver/Golden Duckwing?
     
  5. cowman1970

    cowman1970 Out Of The Brooder

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    From what I have hatched at this point a few (very few) of the pullets have developed the dark melanised breast and the majority look like the Silver Salmon hens. Bob Terwilliger had been working with a few Penn State professors on the development of his Duckwings/Salmons. I may end up taking the trip to the Ohio Nationals in November and hopefully I can see what else is out there. At this point I'm going to work with what I have and cull whatever is necessary from the breeding pens.
     
  6. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    The Leghorn Club of Australia Inc.
    Leghorn: Golden Duckwing ( in this color, the "gold" comes from the gold gene)
    http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/72/32/65513272/photos/Club-Logo/Duckwing_bckl_Canberra_2000.jpg
    another one:
    http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/Games/AmerGameBantams/NicholsonGoldDW2yrC.JPEG
    ====================
    Red Shouldered Silver Duckwing: ( in this color, the "gold" is actually a red coming from the autosomal red gene. So if one breeds this bird thinking they are using the gold gene, they are actually polluting their flock with autosomal red. This can also happen if one is using a hen with an extra dark salmon breast. This could be a RSSD hen. Or it could be a Red Duckwing hen, which is Golden Salmon with the Mahogany (Mh) gene added to it. Either way, the hen tells the tale. If the breast is an extra rich Salmon color, something is amiss. )
    http://www.poultrymad.co.uk/images/dutch/oldutchpartrbant.jpg
    http://www.ruleworks.co.uk/poultry/images/poultryshow2012/dutch-aoc-standard-male2.jpg
    ( note the difference in color in the wing triangle from the Golden Duckwing. In comparing the Golden Duckwing and the RSSD,
    don't go by the shoulder color. Shoulder color in both varieties can be close enough in hue to be confusing. Go by the color
    of the hackle and the color of the wing triangle.)
    ====================
    The Leghorn Club of Australia Inc.
    Leghorn: Silver Duckwing
    http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/72/32/65513272/photos/Club-Logo/Duckwing_Silver.JPG
    ====================
    Old English Game Bantam, Best of Variety :
    Black Breasted Red ( same as Golden Salmon male.
    http://bantams.the-kozaks.com/WFF/PIC00127.JPG
    There is a picture on the Net of a Golden Salmon hen with a bright gold breast.
    http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Marans/GoldSalmMarH.JPEG
    This is also wrong as the true salmon color is missing, replaced by bright gold.
    This hen was from an imported French strain of Golden Salmon.

    Best,
    Karen
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  7. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    Added more info to posts 12 and 16.
    Karen
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  8. Bente

    Bente New Egg

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    I have two of them, got them in Belgium and look desperate for more. I'm located in Denmark, please let me know if you sell hatching eggs.
    Best wishes
    Bente
     
  9. cowman1970

    cowman1970 Out Of The Brooder

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    I'm unable to ship hatching eggs outside the USA. Even if I could I'm not sure they would survive the shipping process. Do you have a hen and a rooster?
     
  10. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    There is a picture on the Net of a Golden Salmon hen with a bright gold breast.
    http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Marans/GoldSalmMarH.JPEG
    This is also wrong as the true salmon color is missing, replaced by bright gold.
    This hen was from an imported French strain of Golden Salmon.
    I just remembered the name of the strain. This was called the "Rice" strain of Golden Salmon Marans.
    Best,
    Karen
     

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