Breeding hatchery stock to SOP, is it worth it?

[K813ZRA]

Okay let me preface by saying that my chickens are nowhere near ready to give me eggs let alone fertile eggs. However, I do plan on hatching some of my own chicks and my stock is hatchery quality: I was wondering if it is worth it to try to breed my hatchery stock to SOP in order to attempt to strengthen my flock. It isn't that I intend to show my chickens but I would like to strengthen their genetics and get them looking as close to correct if at all possible.

Is this something that is worthwhile or an exercise in futility? Or even something that maybe I shouldn't even be worried about? I ask because I intend to raise dual-purpose birds for their intended purpose, meat and eggs as well as eye candy but I have been reading a lot on here that often times hatchery birds are bred solely for egg production and often times lose some of their meat value.

I decided to go with hatchery birds for a few reasons, the main reason being that when you find a breeder even in a long list that sells what you want, they simply do not have any or they do not ship and are far away or even that they only sell eggs which seems like quite the gamble to me. Another issue is investment, you are often times looking at a minimum of 3x the investment with upwards of 10x the investment IF you find someone that stocks what you want.

So basically my idea was to take what I get, choose the best birds, breed them, hatch new ones and keep the best out of the new birds as well and continue. Now, this may be the long way around but it sure sounds intriguing and fun to me, a project if you will.

Any insight would be much appreciated.

 

[Sydney Acres]

As someone who is several years ahead of you on the "standard bred vs hatchery bred" path, I'd say that either option is fine, and that your use of the chickens will eventually point you in the direction that is right for you. Regardless of where you start, you can always change your course later. You're not signing a lifetime contract with these birds, and any birds you get will be a learning experience that you can use towards future flocks.

My household is a good example. Many years ago my husband ordered some Speckled Sussex from a hatchery. The hens were very pretty and sweet, but they were about 2 pounds undersized and laid many more eggs than is appropriate for the breed. They were more like sweet, calm, spotted Leghorns, and their excessive egg laying caused serious health problems, so many of the hens died (they were necropsied by a poultry pathologist, so that conclusion is definite, not an assumption). The roosters were mean and not well fleshed. They could not be free ranged because they attacked anything that moved, and they could not be kept in a bachelor pasture because they tried to kill each other (I'm not talking about the usual cockerel pecking order issues -- it was a fight to the death unless I intervened). Just to get them to slaughter size they had to be kept in individual grow out runs. My husband is stubborn, and insisted on keeping the "best" rooster for breeding, as he had fallen in love with the breed. The rooster couldn't be kept with the hens, as he was horribly abusive, so he spent his days in a large run in the center of the free range pasture, and spent his nights in a small run in the center of the overnight coop. Every time my husband tried to move him from one run to the other, the rooster attacked him, but my husband still wouldn't give up. By the time they were about 16 months old, I was just plain done with this arrangement, so I made a deal with my husband. He would let me slaughter Simon, the rooster from hell, if I could find him some good quality Speckled Sussex that represented the breed well in every aspect -- well fleshed, appropriate number of eggs, good health, vigorous, and wonderful pets. He finally agreed, and I started my search.

Within a few months I was able to find a wonderful breeder who shipped me 24 day-olds. These chicks were large and vigorous and just stunning. There were 8 pullets and 16 cockerels in the group, which was perfect for me, as I wanted about 6-8 hens and 2-3 cocks. This gave me plenty of cockerels to select from, and we got a good sampling of their meat potential, since they all fleshed out wonderfully. Now, even from a good breeder these chicks didn't all grow up to be perfect birds. A few of the cockerels were excessively aggressive for the breed, although no where near the vicious temperament of the hatchery boys. One of the cockerel chicks had some skeletal problems and had to be put down when he was just 2 months old. But at 13 months old, I now have 3 exhibition quality hens, 5 layer quality hens, 2 exhibition quality cocks, and 1 reserve cock. When I say exhibition quality bird, I don't mean that I plan on showing them, or that they would end up as champions if I did. What I mean is that they truly represent the breed up to that level. Their frame is perfect, their size is perfect, and they have all the finishing details right. The finishing details aren't as important to me (although I do truly appreciate their beauty), but the frame and size are important for production of both meat and eggs. And that level of breeding has also produced a bird that is healthy, vigorous, and has a perfect temperament. The Standard isn't just about being a pretty show bird, as the finishing details of color and comb and all the easily seen traits should never be the dominant factor in winning.. It's about producing a bird that has the right frame and size and health to be able to serve the farming purpose that they were developed to serve, as most of the SOP descriptions were written in the day when these birds were depended upon to feed the family, and the country, from family farms -- long before the development of the commercial broiler and layer hybrids.used in factory farming today.

So what's the difference in cost to get a hatchery bird vs a standard bred bird? In my case the hatchery chick cost $4.79 each, plus $30 shipping for 25 chicks. Several of the chicks died during shipping, and several of the hens died at their peak of production, so averaging out those losses and adding shipping would bring the cost of each chick up to about $9-10, not including the feed cost that was lost to raise those hens that died prematurely, losing both a lifetime of egg production and a good soup hen carcass, which is supposed to offset the cost of feed. Plus the poor feed efficiency of the cockerels that never fleshed out properly, producing a disappointing carcass. It also cost time and materials to build special housing for the cockerels as they grew out, and for the rooster that was kept. Plus the time of moving the jerk from indoor run to outdoor run and back again every day. And the loss of years in developing a good breeding program. And the frustration/disappointment of having poor quality birds.

The standard bred chicks cost me $7 each (actually $5.83 each, as I ordered 20 and was sent 24, all of which lived despite a shipping delay), plus $15 shipping. When you average out for the one chick that had to be euthanized before producing a usable carcass and add in shipping, the cost of each chick was $6.74, which is significantly less than the $9-10 of easily-calculated costs for each hatchery chick. It also "cost" a few months of searching APA show records, and posting questions online, and making a few phone calls, all of which ended up being a very positive experience that was done in my spare time, and resulted in no out-of-pocket costs. It costs just as much to feed a good quality bird as a poor quality bird, so we'll say that the feed costs are the same just to make it easier. All 12 of the standard bred cockerels that were slaughtered produced excellent carcasses, making the feed costs worthwhile for these birds, but not for the hatchery cockerels. There was no cost for special housing, and no time wasted for unique management needs. The breeding program will be able to progress on schedule. The temperament of the boys is wonderful, with each of the three cocks being totally safe lap roosters, and no serious fights in the bachelor pasture. When a layer hen occasionally flies into the bachelor pasture, they are obviously young males with normal virility, but they are also gentlemen with appropriate breeding behavior, not aggressive rapist roosters that frighten and attack the hen en masse. Overall, there is no disappointment in these birds, as I wanted Speckled Sussex, the total package of dual purpose production, farm vigor, health, temperament, and beauty, and that's exactly what I received. So for me, the standard bred chicks were significantly cheaper in the long run, just costing a little extra effort to find them.

Obviously, this is an example of two extremes. Not all hatchery birds will be this disappointing, and not all standard bred birds will be this desirable. But it's a good example of looking at the total cost of your starter flock, not just purchase price and convenience of ordering. When you look back in 10 years, it will not matter to you whether you paid $4 a chick, or $7 a chick, or even $25 a chick for your foundation stock. What will matter is how much you enjoyed your birds, and how well your breeding program progressed. Even against the odds, some hatchery chicks will grow into beautiful birds that represent the breed well, and many people start with hatchery chicks. With rigorous selection, some breeders have developed great lines from a hatchery foundation. Usually it doesn't turn out that way. Where ever you start, the important thing is to enjoy the process, and to realize that you can always stop one day and decide to go in a different direction, starting from another source, if you're not happy with the path your breeding program is taking.

 

[3riverschick]

Sounds like I need a a couple of breeding pens, I have plenty of time to build them before my current chicks are of age to breed. If I understand you correctly you are saying to add a quality roster to my hatchery stock and then put my hatchery roosters with quality hens and then breed the offspring (second generation of each line) of the two lines. Thank you for the advice, I think once my birds are grown I will invest in some quality grown birds and give that a go!

yup/
1. Get a top rooster for your best hatchery hen.
Take the best daughter, granddaughters and great granddaughters back to that top rooster.
2. Get the best hen you can for your hatchery rooster.
Breed the best son, grand son and great grandson back to that top hen.
By now your hens and roosters should be mostly the same genetics as the top rooster and top hen you started out with in the 1st generation. Yeah!
Now:
3. Finally, breed together the best great grandkids from the hen line and the rooster line.
If you have chosen wisely along the way, ( get help from a top breeder in your breed) by now you should have birds which can place at the shows. Congrats!
By this time you will know how your flock inherits traits and be able to make quality decisions about who to breed to whom.
Don't worry about inbreeding. Chickens have a very wide genetic base and many sex-linked genes. They can handle quite a bit of inbreeding without problems. Just don't double up on defects in the same generation. If one bird has a defect, make sure the bird you mate it to is correct in that trait and doesn't also carry that defect.
Best,
Karen

 

[Fred's Hens]

Those who breed the best birds? Eat alot of chicken. hahahaha

We hatch 60-100 chicks in our breeding of a particular breed/variety. This is typical of breeders. We're searhing only for those top 3 or 4 birds that show type and feather and other details that move our program forward. So the other birds? Eaten, sold off, or used in the layer pen perhaps.

Now showing. To have peer review of your breeding program? To honestly know how one is doing and to have objective review? That, my friend, is why you take your best to a show to find out. There's no other way, to be honest about it.

Breeding to the standard for the breed and participating in one or two top quality exhibitions a year? That's what this hobby, even for an old homesteader like me, is all about. Don't be afraid to go exhibit and have your breeding work judged.

As for expense of breeder quality, top quality birds as your foundation? It is BY FAR the cheapest way to go to get where you want to be.

How much does it cost to feed out scrub birds for 5 years in the search for the elusive holy grail which will often never come your way, if you begin with scrubs? Consider this. Cheapest way to get somewhere is to take the straightest, quickest path.

 

[K813ZRA]

yup/
1. Get a top rooster for your best hatchery hen.
Take the best daughter, granddaughters and great granddaughters back to that top rooster.
2. Get the best hen you can for your hatchery rooster.
Breed the best son, grand son and great grandson back to that top hen.
By now your hens and roosters should be mostly the same genetics as the top rooster and top hen you started out with in the 1st generation. Yeah!
Now:
3. Finally, breed together the best great grandkids from the hen line and the rooster line.
If you have chosen wisely along the way, ( get help from a top breeder in your breed) by now you should have birds which can place at the shows. Congrats!
By this time you will know how your flock inherits traits and be able to make quality decisions about who to breed to whom.
Don't worry about inbreeding. Chickens have a very wide genetic base and many sex-linked genes. They can handle quite a bit of inbreeding without problems. Just don't double up on defects in the same generation. If one bird has a defect, make sure the bird you mate it to is correct in that trait and doesn't also carry that defect.
Best,
Karen

Once again, thank you very much. This sounds like a fun project for a long time to come!

 

[Fred's Hens]

I read this thread with interest because this is exactly what I am planning to do -- introduce breeder-quality birds to my hatchery flock to get them going back toward the breed standard as proper dual-purpose chickens. I have 18 Delawares. My question is this:

If I acquire top birds from a breeder, why not just let them make a flock instead of breeding them into my hatchery stock? Is there any benefit to me/the flock by breeding the hatchery hen to the top rooster and the top hen to the hatchery rooster, etc, etc down the line? If I keep my hatchery birds separate, I could collect what eggs they give and let natural attrition deplete the flock while I build up the breeder flock, yes?

When it comes time to make up your breeding pens, and you choose your #1, #2, and #3 female (because that's all you need, ie, 60-70 eggs a month) and you choose your #1 cock bird and determine who your backup cock bird is and keep him in the wings, you'll have you mating group. Since one is breeding toward the Standard for the breed, one selects the best and breeds them to the best.

What are the odds that hatchery stock would ever match up to birds you get that ARE and HAVE BEEN standard bred? Slim to none. So, breed the best to the best. Done. Folks like to assume that a singular great cockerel will "pull up" the hatchery stock he's over and sometimes fail to contemplate the opposite effect; that the hatchery stuff pulls down the Standard bred bird. Yup. Altogether too common.

So, there you go. Pretty simple really. Best regards on your future in breeding and raising top flight birds.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I've only kept and bred two breeds over the last few decades. Rocks and Reds. Trying to "up breed" production reds is pretty useless. Why? Because the genes just aren't there. Year after year, feed bag after feed bag and why? You can perhaps make them slightly tweaked but to the Standard for the breed? I won't ever live long enough.

My other breed, the Rocks, in two varieties, would have been almost as difficult. (this also assumes no injection of 'outside' genetics) Just selecting and breeding them would prove a very, very long task, costing so much feed and a decade of time to maybe budge the White Rocks forward a bit.

The Barred Rocks? Again, you could breed them for decades and barely move the needle on the tachometer. Why? Again, the genetics for the sharp barring required for Standard bred Barred Rocks would be so buried and so diluted as to be effectively absent.

Through selection and taking years and years, you might well bump up the size and weight, but feather, top line, bottom line, wide tent tails, proper heads, combs, and the rest? Way too far off. You'd have to hatch out hundreds of chicks each year in hopes of finding just a chick here or there with a wee bit of improvement. Life is far too short. Breeding GREAT birds to just keep them up to the breed Standard is plenty hard enough.

Once you've gone to a major poultry show, such as the Ohio National, for example, and seen 10,000 birds in all their glory, and see your favorite breed up close and personal, and see just how SPECTACULAR the exhibited specimens are?

Once you can breathe again, you understand they're NOT the same birds at all and you also understand so much better the need to get your hands on two dozen hatching eggs or a breeding trio of THOSE birds with THAT DNA.

 

[K813ZRA]

I've only kept and bred two breeds over the last few decades. Rocks and Reds. Trying to "up breed" production reds is pretty useless. Why? Because the genes just aren't there. Year after year, feed bag after feed bag and why? You can perhaps make them slightly tweaked but to the Standard for the breed? I won't ever live long enough.

My other breed, the Rocks, in two varieties, would have been almost as difficult. (this also assumes no injection of 'outside' genetics) Just selecting and breeding them would prove a very, very long task, costing so much feed and a decade of time to maybe budge the White Rocks forward a bit.

The Barred Rocks? Again, you could breed them for decades and barely move the needle on the tachometer. Why? Again, the genetics for the sharp barring required for Standard bred Barred Rocks would be so buried and so diluted as to be effectively absent.

Through selection and taking years and years, you might well bump up the size and weight, but feather, top line, bottom line, wide tent tails, proper heads, combs, and the rest? Way too far off. You'd have to hatch out hundreds of chicks each year in hopes of finding just a chick here or there with a wee bit of improvement. Life is far too short. Breeding GREAT birds to just keep them up to the breed Standard is plenty hard enough.

Once you've gone to a major poultry show, such as the Ohio National, for example, and seen 10,000 birds in all their glory, and see your favorite breed up close and personal, and see just how SPECTACULAR the exhibited specimens are?

Once you can breathe again, you understand they're NOT the same birds at all and you also understand so much better the need to get your hands on two dozen hatching eggs or a breeding trio of THOSE birds with THAT DNA.

I don't know, that sounds like a pretty fun life long project to me. I have about 5-6 decades left in me according to my family history, barring a freak accident. TBH, for me at least, breeding up the size and weight would be the main goal as I can't eat the comb. That said, I understand where you are coming from. It is just that for me it is like cars, I'd rather have a rat rod that I can drive than a show car that I have to tow on a trailer.

Again, the other way sounds fun too, though. Hatching out your own eggs as that seems to be about the best way to get good breeder stock, at least on here. Many people sell the eggs of breeds that I want but few ever have chicks in stock.

In the end what I have taken away from this is that there are two routes to go. You can breed the best of your hatchery birds and end up with a good laying and eating bird that resembles its ancestors or you can go with a good breeder stock and end up with very pretty birds that can be show stoppers and may or may not have better meat and egg production qualities. I guess one has to decide which route is best for them. In my case I am leaning toward meat and egg qualities.

As an aside, I am glad that others are getting their questions answered too. I grow to love this site more and more each day as everyone is so willing to share what knowledge they have learned over the years, freely.

 

[AllynTal]

...In the end what I have taken away from this is that there are two routes to go. You can breed the best of your hatchery birds and end up with a good laying and eating bird that resembles its ancestors or you can go with a good breeder stock and end up with very pretty birds that can be show stoppers and may or may not have better meat and egg production qualities. I guess one has to decide which route is best for them. In my case I am leaning toward meat and egg qualities.

I'm leaning toward meat and egg, but in order to get that I need proper breeder-quality birds.

What I'm coming away with is, if you pick a breed that has the traits you want, in my case I want a proper dual-purpose bird for a sustainable flock that lays well enough and has good meat qualities, and I breed to standard, then I'm not breeding for appearance -- your "show stoppers" -- I'm breeding to get those qualities of laying and meat. The problem with the hatchery birds is they have been bred strictly for appearance -- the comb is just so and the legs are the right color, et al, at the cost of the other breed traits-- or they've been bred to improve laying at the expense of meat. I spent a lot of time researching chicken breeds to find one that has all the traits I want, I acquired a small flock of that breed only to find that the qualities that the breed is supposed to have has been bred out of them to skew them more toward egg production at the cost of meat-worthiness and oh-by-the-way, the hatchery bred them to look like their ancestors, just not perform like them. By getting good breeder stock, I get the traits in the bird that I wanted in the first place -- a proper dual-purpose bird with the egg production it is supposed to have and the meat qualities it is supposed to have. I think when Fred's Hens was talking about 'show stoppers' he wasn't talking about 'pretty' birds; he was talking about robust, full-framed, fine examples of the breed and not the scrawny bred-for-high-egg-production chickens from the hatchery.

 

[Fred's Hens]

No apologies needed and no offense taken at all. No worries.