Broody Hen Thread!

[varidgerunner]

I have seen cooper's hawks come flitting through the woods here, They always get spotted. Roosters tell the hens, hens tell the chicks, chicks bury in leaves and grass, hens step under a bush, if there is a rooster loose, he steps into the open, flaps his wings and crows. Usually that is enough to make them move on. My hens are seldom far from good hiding places when they have chicks. When I had guineas, they got massacred. Noisy hawk meals is what I found them to be. These hens are no push-overs. I've had them kill snakes. One of them beat a skunk into a cowering smelly mass in the corner of her pen. Chickens with all their instincts intact are a sight to behold.

 

[WildHens]

Well There are several, Wazine will kill round worms etc, but will not touch a tape worm,  Safeguard goat wormer will kill the round worms and the tape worms etc, etc. So You know which one I use. There are probably many other good wormers----Safeguard works and saved a lot of my chickens when I had the problem a couple years back. I use SafeGuard Goat wormer---I mix it by what the DVM told me---I been well pleased.

Have you heard anything about the withdrawal period for Wazine having changed to being a lifetime withdrawal for eggs or meat now??

 

[PD-Riverman]

Have you heard anything about the withdrawal period for Wazine having changed to being a lifetime withdrawal for eggs or meat now??

No, I am slow about getting new info----Sure would like to read up on it----you got a link---I will also do a search. Thanks

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Have you heard anything about the withdrawal period for Wazine having changed to being a lifetime withdrawal for eggs or meat now??

Yes, if you are referring to FDA standards.

Wazine (piperazine) is no longer FDA approved for layers used for eggs for human consumption. So there is no "pull" date for eggs. Yes, technically, if Wazine is used (off label), you should never ever use that hen again for eggs for human consumption.
http://www.drugs.com/vet/wazine-17.html
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/animaldrugsatfda/

EDITED TO ADD: actual Wazine label with FDA approval number which allows in meat birds but not egg layers http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/spl/d...725f/c22eacb2-e395-4ba1-97df-5f63b204725f.xml

Wazine lost FDA approval a number of years ago.

Right now, as I type this, to my knowledge, only Hygromycin B is FDA approved for hens used for laying eggs for human consumption in the US. (Hygromycin B is a feed additive wormer. You can purchase it in Rooster Booster's Triple Action Multi Wormer or in Durvet's Strike III. It treats cecal, capillary, and round with no pull time on eggs. It is best to feed for at least 2 weeks seasonally, longer or more frequent if evidence of worm overload seen).

Its a bit of musical chairs to keep up with what is approved and not approved by the FDA for poultry. Drugs come onto the approval list and drop off the approval list...but mostly just drop off the list in recent years because of the recent momentum in Congress to remove all drug residue from the food chain. Therefore, the drug companies voluntarily remove the drugs as they no longer find it profitable to do the testing and necessary requirements to be FDA approved.

Many of these drugs have a long history in the agricultural community and Ag universities as being safe and effective. A number of them have egg residue studies which have been very positive. But they are not FDA approved for hens used as "layers of eggs for human consumption."

So what does that mean to you? Possibly nothing if you do not sell eggs or meat. It could mean getting a vet's prescription to treat (by law you are required to treat your animal if disease is present), but I do not see, currently in the regs, where a vet's prescription allows that hen to be used for "eggs for human consumption" with Wazine (or any other non-approved drug).

So, it is a bit of "no man's land." You are expected to treat the animal responsibly, but that may make the animal no longer commercially viable. That is why so many drugs are off market as the industry no longer worms or medicates (no use/no profit). The industry standard is to use industrial sanitization, pen rotation, and culling methods (ie culling any bird 2 years and older).

But the backyarder lives a different lifestyle. For those who eat only the eggs they grow, they can do what they choose with the chickens. There is no FDA chicken police for the small holder.

It only becomes a question if you sell to the public...and then it may only be a concern, depending upon your farming philosophy, if you are required to be inspected and licensed. (Another "no man's land" for the small holder...less than 3000? is my memory). So it is possible to treat with recognized and historically respected meds, using a reasonable pull date, and then sell farm direct under "farm fresh." Where it might bite you would be if someone got sick from your eggs and your attorney has to prove you used known standards that were acceptable for eggs....remaining within FDA approved drugs makes that easier.

Those who go "organic" (like my daughter and her husband who have an organic farm for market) cannot use most/any? of the FDA approved drugs as they must also meet the stricter standard of "organic." They are limited to only those things considered "organic" leaving them to the realm of herbals and strict field rotation.

So in answer to your question....yes, Wazine now has a "lifetime pull date" if you are attempting to remain within FDA approval for hens used as "layers of eggs for human consumption."

LofMc

 

[microchick]

I have seen cooper's hawks come flitting through the woods here, They always get spotted. Roosters tell the hens, hens tell the chicks, chicks bury in leaves and grass, hens step under a bush, if there is a rooster loose, he steps into the open, flaps his wings and crows. Usually that is enough to make them move on. My hens are seldom far from good hiding places when they have chicks. When I had guineas, they got massacred. Noisy hawk meals is what I found them to be. These hens are no push-overs. I've had them kill snakes. One of them beat a skunk into a cowering smelly mass in the corner of her pen. Chickens with all their instincts intact are a sight to behold.

Whow. And to think I was impressed when I saw one of my Welsummer hens catch a young mouse, beat it to death and down it in one gulp!

 

[Lady of McCamley]

To me, your hen's poo indicated being over-heated and/or illness. Broody poo is big, thick, and especially large in content. Thin and runny poo is not a good sign. You had her high in the rafters, is it possible she was too warm in that area?

Also, I keep hearing it repeated that hens can brood themselves to death as if this is a natural occurrence and something that we poultry managers need to regularly protect our brooding hens from. However, It has been my experience that a healthy hen does not starve herself to death while brooding. Hens are designed to brood and withstand brooding. Unless a hen has developed a worm overload, external parasites, or has very poor food/water support during the brood, (all things to manage and maintain during the brood), she will not succumb to the ills of brooding in and of itself.


I do ponder the stamina of commercial layer breeds, such as RIRs, and hybrids for brooding. Broodiness has been genetically selected out of them, but occasionally you'll get one who does have enough hormone imprint left that she will undertake a brood, often half-heartedly. Typically they will play at brooding, sulking, rather than really committing to a good brood. However, doing so may lower their immune system enough that something latent kicks in.

I have had a couple of sulky brooders in my large fowl commercial breeds, but they snapped out of it to return to full health with a little encouragement. However, I had one lingering sulky/broody girl waste away and eventually die, even after encouragement and support. After viewing a multitude of healthy broods, and several unhealthy broods, I have come to the conclusion that this gal brooded and died from poor health rather than true broodiness.

I suspicion what is mistaken for a normal brood is sometimes actually an unhealthy brood brought on by un-natural hormonal imbalance and/or underlying disease.

Curiously, I know that in commercial breeds, ovarian tumors are very common in laying hens by the age of 2 years (which is why the industry culls at 2 years of age). One article states: "These tumors [in poultry] are so prevalent that scientists studying human ovarian cancer use chickens in their research. A study in 2005 of 676 four-year old laying hens determined that 45% had tumors! 18% of those were adenocarcinomas." (cited below)

Which causes me to ponder even further that there may be a link between these common ovarian tumors and an unhealthy, wasting brood.

I suspicion ovarian cancer was a possible culprit in that one hen. While she appeared to be truly broody at the beginning, she was especially sulky, lethargic in her brood, then weakened and wasted. No manner of encouragement or care helped. Once you see it, this wasting brood is not like a normal brood but something truly more sinister. I therefore wonder if the ovarian tumor causes a trigger of hormones which sets them into an unhealthy brood, then they slowly succumb to weakness and eventually death as their stressed immune system cannot fight off the growing, cancerous tumors.....just totally guessing as I did not do a necropsy on the hen, but I highly suspicion tumors present as her abdomen was more distended, typical of the tumors created by ovarian cancer. (Something I noticed but did not understand at the time.)

Other underlying illnesses, like slow growth Mareks, can be triggered by stress, such as brooding, and cause a slow wasting and weakness as well.

So while I am sympathetic to those who feel their hens need to be closely monitored for brooding behaviors, with significant daily intervention, and I know brooding is definitely a marathon sat by the hen and needs good support like any athlete should receive, I remain skeptical that poor health/starvation/wasting is the nature of normal brooding in itself.

Just thoughts...perhaps ramblings....in response to my continued observation that a healthy hen will brood and come out fine without a lot of human intervention but only reasonable support and maintenance.

Have any of you other experienced broody keepers noticed anything of the same kind?

@fisherlady @nchls school @vpatt @Sydney Acres

@varidgerunner I know you've contemplated the same thoughts with your more wild type games having more of the natural instinct and stamina to brood

LofMc
Sources:
1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759668/
2. http://hencam.com/henblog/2011/02/why-old-hens-die/
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1474556/

@PD-Riverman

I was hoping you'd weigh in as well on the natural broody vs. unhealthy broody issue. (I didn't cue you at the time as you are pretty good about scanning the thread and responding).

Have you predominately had to watch your ladies to be sure they don't starve or hinder themselves while brooding? (I know you have voiced a "hands-off" approach).

How often have you experienced a hen that "brooded herself to death?" If ever.

Thanks for your input as I know you've done hundreds of broodies while I am working on a much smaller scale over time.

LofMc

 

[kendallb12]

hello, my BO chicks didn't hatch, we decided just to give her chicks to raise. how do I take the eggs away from her and give her the chicks? I want her to think that they hatched and they are Hers!! PLEASE REPLY!! ASAP!!

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I have seen cooper's hawks come flitting through the woods here, They always get spotted. Roosters tell the hens, hens tell the chicks, chicks bury in leaves and grass, hens step under a bush, if there is a rooster loose, he steps into the open, flaps his wings and crows. Usually that is enough to make them move on. My hens are seldom far from good hiding places when they have chicks. When I had guineas, they got massacred. Noisy hawk meals is what I found them to be. These hens are no push-overs. I've had them kill snakes. One of them beat a skunk into a cowering smelly mass in the corner of her pen. Chickens with all their instincts intact are a sight to behold.

There have been many hawks found dead with a game rooster standing on top of them crowing. It all depends on the rooster. And the hen, to some extent. I have chicks running all over the place here, with good mamas that tell them to hide every time a rooster says "bird".

Who knows? That rooster can not stop a hawk that scoops down and grabs a chick-flying off with it to be back shortly for another one. Well really that rooster can not stop a good size hawk from killing him---he might put up a fight for a few seconds while that hawk tears his throat out---I have seen it done. So if you got Hawks---might better put them chicks/mom under a wire top----pen.

I agree Riverman! Mom and chicks should be in a wire roofed pen. Hawks have been known to take out a newborn fawn. As you said the rooster might be able to fight for a bit, but if the hawk is determined to have a chicken dinner...he won't be able to hold it off for long.

I've seen and done it both ways.

I live in a heavily frequented hawk area...even in my more suburbia overgrown farm land.

I have seen hens literally duck, hide, and run like well-seasoned vets on a battlefield...and I never noticed the hawk silouette until everyone had disappeared.

I've had other bird brains never get a clue there might be something out to get them.

I've lost birds to hawks, as have many of my chicken keeper friends. I have personally stood by and seen the hawk come from a tall tree and dive bomb my broody pen (now carefully encased in hawk netting). That is how I lost my absolute best brooding hen ever...she was on free range with some oversized grow outs...the hawk nailed her...I found her dead body half eaten at lock up. That hawk (Cooper's) came back several days in a row, and I saw exactly the diving run that came from nowhere.

The remaining birds have now become much more hawk savvy....see the duck/hide/cover sentence.

Then we have a period of no hawks, other birds enter the flock, and I watch again how some are much more savvy than others.

Right now, I have partial netting on half my property around trees, then there is some open area. I am letting my little babes integrate more freely, and I have an awesome rooster. I am holding my breath....I really, really, hope I don't lose my rooster to a hawk or any of the flock. It is nice to let them free range more. I have attempted to integrate their range with plenty of hiding places.

We'll see how this goes. If it goes south, I'll be back to broody hen in netted pen and integrating at point of lay again....I hope not...as broody in coop with rooster integrating chicks has been absolutely awesome to see.

Lofmc

 

[WildHens]

https://m.facebook.com/notes/backya...4476/?ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_comment_reply

This is where I saw it..I prefer Safeguard for everything and only used Wazine when I first got chickens

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Whow. And to think I was impressed when I saw one of my Welsummer hens catch a young mouse, beat it to death and down it in one gulp!

Then you'll enjoy this story...a chicken friend of mine was out on the back porch and happened to observe her cat "playing" with a mouse. The poor thing was tossed in the air numerous times until it finally fell out of reach from the cat.

Terrified, the mouse looked at the cat, then looked at the chicken pen. It bolted into the chicken pen away from the cat, to obvious safety, it thought.

It made a poor choice.

Those hens collectively pounced on that mouse as one hoard, and my friend said the mouse was torn limb from limb into smithereens within seconds.

However, I have yet to see any of my lazy gals so much as lift a beak at any rodent scurrying around my place.

LofMc