Buckeye Breed Thread

[Jake Levi]

He is really nice !! Thanks for sharing.

 

[knittychickadee]

Brr cold out there today. My water tubs were frozen solid this morning!

 

[Pathfinders]

Hey folks, what say we have a Buckeye get-together in southern OH for those of us who live here. I want to personally invite Jeff Lay, Joe Shumaker, and anyone else who wants to meet me in the greater Cincinnati area to have lunch or dinner and talk Buckeyes.

Having two Buckeye clubs is very divisive. Let's see if we can all work together for the good of the breed! Who's with me?

 

[kathyinmo]

Hi Laura,
I just popped in here to thank you. I just love your website and your poultry articles. I have referred many people to them and they are always appreciative. Thank you so much for all you do!

 

[Pathfinders]

Quote:
Why thank you! I always try to be as helpful as I can. And poultry clubs are welcome to reprint my articles, all I request is that they ask for permission ahead of time, and quote me as the source.

 

[cgmccary]

Hey folks, what say we have a Buckeye get-together in southern OH for those of us who live here. I want to personally invite Jeff Lay, Joe Shumaker, and anyone else who wants to meet me in the greater Cincinnati area to have lunch or dinner and talk Buckeyes.

Having two Buckeye clubs is very divisive. Let's see if we can all work together for the good of the breed! Who's with me?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Laura Haggarty

Laura: I am with you in spirit but Cincinnati is a little far for me to join the group for dinner (although the Cincy chili is almost worth the drive). The funny thing about having the two clubs is I think essentially we agree about what a good Buckeye looks like. And therefore, I am not bothered by these other little differences in personality. I don't expect to be liked by everyone (or in my line of work I know that at least half very much hate me).

I wholeheartily agree the surface color is "an even shade of rich mahogany bay in all sections, with the exception of the unexposed primaries and secondaries and the main tail feathers which may contain black " (a lot of folks want to add the word dark in front of mahogany bay but the SOP does not say "dark"[and no Standard ever has] and I believe mahogany bay confers a red glow rather than a dead brown so we agree, right?); anyone who disagrees with this assertion? However, like with a lot of breeds, it is my very humble opinion, that ALL of you put too much emphasis on color when I think the emphasis should be on body type. That is a very honest difference of opinion though & is not a "club difference" (I disgaree with some in my own in this regard). I want good color too but all I am saying is that I put body type ahead of color. I know that best feather quality and color is what wins at the show. We can all read the SOP and know what it says. I also will point out that the SOP, in judging a breed, puts more emphasis to body and other things over color. I guess we could disgaree on what Mahogany Bay looks like (but I think the color itself lends a little wiggle room) -- I think the originator referred to the color of horses and cattle so google that and you can see what the color looks like. It gives me goose bumps when a bird with better type wins in a show over one with better color (with other qualities being the same).

I think it is also OK to have a difference of opinion as to the care of your birds (i.e. try different feeds and ratios of different mixtures and such). I am always all ears to anyone trying something different. I am relunctant to change feeds or some form of care (worming, housing) when something has worked for me. I suspect there is more than one formula in this regard that will work so not a right or wrong just several right ways. We live in different regions so what might be right for one might not be right for another. I say go with what has worked best for you.

There are a lot of things that I sometimes would like to discuss and hear opinions on what others are doing, observing & that I believe a discussion could benefit a lot of people (and that I personally could use some feedback or opinion regarding) but I know if I bring it up here or publically elsewhere, then it will be taken by someone believing me "on the other side" and then my statement misrepresented somewhere else. Then people email or PM me saying, they said you said this. I know I did not say that and go back to see what I said & what I said has been oh so slightly changed to fit whatever personal attack is being levied against me.

Usually, when people meet face-to face, then opinions change about one another, and we find out we have more in common than different. I know this is not always true. I reckon it could help solidify ones views of another as well. The anonimity of the internet and these forums allows people to be mean and ugly toward one another. It makes it easy. I wish this was not so.

One thing that bothers me is that I am always accused of claiming I am an expert on Buckeyes (and these words are often placed in my mouth by others). I have never claimed to be an expert and I have said so to the others. I can have honest opinions, observations on the breed & give them without making that claim, can't I? There are some things I am an expert in but it has to do with my job as a lawyer and nothing to do with poultry. I know what an expert is, and I am not one in this regard but at least I know I am not. So again, I want to say emphatically that I am not an expert on the Buckeye. What I do claim to be in regards to the Buckeye breed is a very enthusiastic hobbyist, and as such, I breed my Buckeyes. I have shown them a couple of times, but I don't think two shows makes me a "show person." I would show more but there is the matter of economics, logistics and time (i.e. who's going to look after my birds & farm while I am away? hotel and travel expense; time away from work). You see, it is not easy going to the shows and worrying about all this other back home. I do plan to continue to show, hopefully, a couple of times a year. I admire those who show their birds more. I believe showing the Buckeye is good for the breed. Showing my Buckeyes does not cause me to breed mine any different. I am still going to make the same breeding selections and pairings based upon my flock's strengths and weaknesses whether or not I show or not. I do not maintain a large flock. Currently, I have 35 female Buckeyes and 12 males. Three of the males are being fattened for the freezer.

In my very humble opinion, there are no experts of the Buckeye breed. There are some very knowledgeable people breeding Buckeyes. I know who they are and this is something I try to convey to you. These few folks have a better eye than most of us. It is a fact though that there are no Master Breeders of the Buckeye (as there are with other poultry breeds), not yet. I am willing to work together with any of you for the good of this breed & without regard to whether you disagree with one of my opinions. You will have to accept what I believe though: there are no experts of the Buckeye breed. This has been what has caused the rift between me and them. I regard them as my equal, and I have the audacity to differ in my opinion about the breed.

What has been the best of pleasure for me has been to meet many of you Buckeye folks face-to face and know you personally. I enjoy showing you the things I have learned. I especially love to see your birds and appreciate you letting me handle them. I am unwilling to always agree with you on everything but admit, I am still learning.

I have said this before but in all sincererity: I hope all your birds are better & surpass mine -- there is nothing that would please me more (except I would want to get some from you). If I have said something that offends any of you, then PM me about it (off the public forum). My intention is not to offend. At least, please have the decency to PM me.​

 

[Pathfinders]

Quote:
I agree completely. I've said it before, I'll say it again I am not an expert on Buckeyes, or poultry of any breed, for that matter. I am expert at some of the things I work at, but poultry is not one of them. I wish I were! But I am not.

I do write about poultry a lot, that's more because I'm one of those people to whom writing and speaking comes easily. I love to share what I know, and learn more from others, so I can share that too! I think forums like this can be a wonderful resource for meeting others of like minds, and learning from them. But just because I write about it, doesn't make me think I am an expert. I'm just wordy.

While I have shown in the past, it's never been more than oh, five shows a year. And lately I haven't been showing at all. I love to show, as its so much fun to meet other people who share my love of poultry (and don't consider me the weird chicken lady down the road who washes her chickens.) I love being able to walk down the aisle and discuss birds (although I make a point to only discuss faults in my own birds, and always praise the good things I see in birds that belong to others.) I love judging showmanship classes at shows, working with the kids is the very best part! I don't care if I win, I just want to do the best I can with what I have, and always be improving what I'm working with.

My love of Buckeyes has a very emotional basis. My beloved maternal grandfather was an amazing man. He and his father were conservationists before it was even a concept. My great-grandfather and grandfather were responsible for the reforestation of more than 4 million trees in the state of OH. And they both loved poultry! I learned my love of animals from my grandfather, who had me riding when I was just three years old. One of his favorite trees was the Buckeye; when he died we found a buckeye seed in the pocket of every jacket he had (I still have several, they are among my most prized possessions!) I only wish he'd known about the breed, as I feel sure he would have had some.

So when I found out there was a chicken called a Buckeye, and that they were created by a woman from OH (I was born and raised in Cleveland, north of my maternal grandparents farm), I knew I had to have some! And that was the beginning of it for me. But of course, once I had some, I fell in love with them as a breed, as they were just what I was looking for in a bird (above and beyond the sentimental value.)

I really do wish everyone could get along, I hate disagreements and petty bickering. Life is too short! I hate poultry politics (part of why I didn't run for another term as an ABA Director was I couldn't stand the politics of it all, as much as I love the ABA.) Can't we all just get along?

Anyway, I hope lots of folks in the area will be willing to join me for a meal and to talk Buckeyes.

 

[Jake Levi]

Chris and Laura keep your posts coming, I always get much from them.

Thanks for your input on this great breed of Chickens and your work with them.

 

[Pathfinders]

Someone just emailed me to ask if there was a formal agenda for the get-together I have proposed. Here is my reply to her (and to anyone who wishes to attend):

There is no written agenda, it's not a formal meeting of any sort. Just an informal get-together to try to put aside past problems and move forward as one in the best interests of the breed.

Anyone is welcome, as long as their intent matches that of the statement above. People who attend in order be divisive, argumentative, or in any way try to harm either breed club are not welcome. Peace and cooperation are the goals of this meeting.

If you can say your intent matches those, then you're more than welcome! If not, then perhaps you would be better served not to attend.

Laura

 

[Chickielady]

Quote:
Pathfinders: That would be odd. Jason has done well at many large shows, often winning with his birds. Perhaps you misunderstood?

I am surprised and sorry to hear the judge said what he did to you. You should write a letter to the APA telling them of your experience. Judges are expected to judge to the Standard, regardless of whether they agree with it or not.

yes, Jason won BB LF Buckeye last year (2010) at Ohio National, correct? & he's won at Boston's show and he won BB Bantam Buckeyes at the Crossroads this year.

Obviously the judge did not follow his "opinion" of the Buckeye in his judging. Jason's pullet looks like a very good specimen of the breed and if the RB was your cockerel, Joe (out of 31 Buckeyes), then the Judge did not allow his final decision to get clouded by his wrong personal interpretation of color. {I think both the BB and RB look great -- at least from the photos I see-- I can see why they were the best two out of 31}.

A protest of a judge is only warranted "in case of Apparent dishonesty on the part of a judge, or apparent carelessness that has resulted in the placing of a disqualified or demonstrable inferior specimen." ARTICLE VII, Section 3, of the APA By-Laws. Here the BB & RB are clearly good specimens of the Buckeye breed so a protest is not warranted. It will do you more harm than good. Most judges do not know the Buckeye like they should. It is up to us (You Joe, me, Laura, Janet, ChickieL, Mitch, Jason, Jennifer, etc) to exhibit correct Buckeyes so the judges get accustomed to seeing them. Also, too many of the judges want to compare or contrast them with RIRs which has plagued the judging of Buckeyes as well as other red breeds for decades. It is also a function & duty of the the breed clubs to educate judges and to insure that whoever judges our meets, knows the breed. We continue taking steps to do this now. There are at least two APA judges who breed Buckeyes and another who keeps some on his yard for someone else. Of course, these three judges may be the most strict of judging the breed since they know them well -- but even they have their little pet peeves about the breed (or quirks).

All this goes back to what I have maintained all along: you as a breeder have a responsibility to breed the Buckeye according to the SOP and NOT simply to win specific shows or to impress a particular judge -- because that judge's interpretation or opinion may be wrong. At this point in time, those of us who have been around the breed several years know it better than a judge who has just seen them in a show here or there, and this is the way it should be -- we SHOULD know the breed better. When I want to know the weak and strong points in my birds I ask other more experienced breeders (& those I know will be honest with me -- i.e. Haggarty, Gilbert, Schrider, D. Urch, John Brown) -- I may or may not agree with everything one or the other says but I respect their opinions. To date, I have never went and asked the judge why he picked my birds, didn't pick them, liked about them or didn't like about them, or this or that. If the Judge was one of those 2-3 who breed & raise Buckeyes, then yes, you betcha, I would talk in earnest to them.

It is worth repeating what Laura said in an earlier post here as well (and I have added my emphasis):

Pathfinders: I think the thing to remember is, there haven't been many Buckeyes at shows until about the past three to five years. There has only been a sanctioned breed club for the past three years, so of course we'll see some variance in the birds. And honestly, I think we always will. One breeder will be working towards his interpretation of the Standard, while another will be working towards his, and they may differ (McCary and Brown, for example.) That's not bad, in my mind, just how it is. You can see this sort of variation in other breeds as well, and I don't think it's something to be worried about.I would never breed towards what a particular judge feels is right, as we know, some judges know the birds quite well, others do not. It's never good to build your breeding pens around what has won at a show (or not, as the case may be.) But to read and read and re-read the Standard, take it out with you to your pens, compare your birds to it, and above all, as Chris and Don suggest, pick those birds up and make sure their structure is sound! You have to get your hands on your birds in order to make good decisions about which to keep and which to sell down the road as layers. I have not shown at all this year, and won't be, due to family stuff. But that makes me no less a dedicated breeder, and I know there are lots of folks out there who don't show who have AWESOME birds. The things showing does do for you is allow you to see the birds others are working with, gives you a chance to talk to other breeders, and to avoid having "barn blindness" about your birds (and get some stock from others who may have perfected a trait you're working on!)

I noticed that the Champion Large Fowl was a Dominique hen so it looks like some of the other judges weren't as disappointed in the American Class as a whole.​

please to ask who was showing the Dominique hen???????