Building a barn - Any advice?

[welsummerchicks]

Then please talk to your insurance people about having a fire break between the hay storage and the rest of your building!!!

They will advise you as to what material to put on the wall and ceiling to fulfill the requirement of being a suitable fire break.

 

[Akane]

Personally with a 32' width I would probably go 10' wide stalls down one side for the goats/cow and other purposes, a 12' wide aisle, and then 12'x12' stalls down the other side for the horses or pregnant animals and offspring. The first bad winter storm you'll be glad you have 12' instead of 10' horse stalls. A disconnected hay building is safest and with a 12' aisle you can stack small numbers of bales between stall doors or give up a stall space for some. Since we have a much smaller number of horses now we converted a 12x12' stall for just square bales and then still keep the round bales in the other building. Prior to that we would just haul a truckload or until the snow got too deep a cart load pulled by the 4wheeler from one building to the other every 1-2weeks and stack them 3wide, 2 deep, and 3 high on alternating sides between the stall doors. 12' also just allows a hay rack and other equipment in there which may not seem important with a separate hay building or area but when you just got a whole load of square bales and it starts to sprinkle you will not be regretting your decision as you back the entire thing in to the building for a few hours to a day or shove in that lone round bale that didn't fit in the other location right then. Not to mention the occasional decision to change the material or design of your stall floors and the difference it makes driving the pickup or trailer in versus carrying it all by hand. I broke a couple wheel barrows the year I switched several stalls over to stall skins over sand. It didn't help it rained on the sand pile in the outdoor arena and I was moving it all wet. I really regretted not just getting the load of sand in the pickup instead of dumped by a dump truck to save costs and being able to drive it down the aisle rather than one heavy wheel barrow load at a time.

I also like the idea of having several if not all stalls open to the pasture even if it's shared. Ours have a separate 3 sided shelter for hay and storms during the day so the stalls would not be left open when there are multiple horses sharing the area. It would make it much quicker to let horses in and out though, would have avoided near misses those times other people put them up or let them out and just ran the whole group down the concrete aisle, and would have allowed for conversion to individual paddocks for boarding, maintaining stallions, and introducing animals. We have been unable to do the first 2 since we only have 1 pasture with shelter and one way in and out of the stable from the pastures. The last one works ok with trained animals since they can be led in and out but a couple times I got completely untrained horses and ended up building a run out of cattle panels and extra gates to the 2nd closest pasture so I could just let them in and out without having to halter and lead them. It also often required help to get mares and foals in to their own paddock since the foals could wander off and get the mares all upset. I'm sure most of that can also be applied to goats even if you never plan to own more than 2 horses or breed them.

For horses electric tape fencing has proven a far better perimeter fence than plain field fencing or wire strands whether high tensile or barbwire on our place. The last 2 I wouldn't have around horses. I would much prefer field fencing with electric tape set inside and then interior fences in electric tape but between the 2 we've had less issues with just electric tape than just field fencing. With goats your perimeter fence will most likely have to include field fencing or something similar. I found horses do a good job of smashing wire fencing down over the years resulting in multiple escapes and injuries a year where as in the 10 years since we tore it all down and replaced with just electric tape we have had a handful of minor escapes in to areas that only had 1 strand, 1 major escape from a houdini horse that grabbed the gate handled and ripped it off the post, and no injuries. Now we are slowly putting back in good quality field fencing on the other side of the posts from the electric tape to replace all the damaged stuff we had to remove. Mostly for the purpose of defining property lines and keeping people out due to the new subdivision going in on 2 sides and bad neighbor relations on a 3rd.

 

[patandchickens]

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Well, talk to them first -- you may find it's not a big difference in rates, and at least it used to be (dunno bout now) that they would only accept something like a floor-to-ceiling cinderblock wall, which is hugely expensive. Basically, DO talk to your insurance representative BEFORE getting too attached to particular plans.

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But do be aware that having stalls open right into a pasture or shed can create NEW hazards and "near misses". Depending on how your horses get along and your horse-handling/training skills, trying to sort a mob of hungry horses into the right stalls without anybody (horse or human) getting kicked or squashed, can be a big Exciting at times. This may not be too much of a consideration for the o.p. if she will only have 2 horses and is committed to training them to wait their turns; but I am pointing this out for the benefit of anyone who may be reading the praises lauded of stall-doors-to-turnout and thinking of doing it with, like, five or fifteen horses.

For horses electric tape fencing has proven a far better perimeter fence than plain field fencing or wire strands whether high tensile or barbwire on our place. The last 2 I wouldn't have around horses. I would much prefer field fencing with electric tape set inside and then interior fences in electric tape but between the 2 we've had less issues with just electric tape than just field fencing.

Oh yes, I completely agree -- just to clarify, when I was suggesting above that something nonelectric makes the best perimeter fence, such as field fencing, I did not mean that you would expose the horses to it. You'd have a couple lines of electric set off 5-10' or so, or at least a couple long standoff hotwires.

Pat​

 

[Whispering Winds]

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AMEN. Always, always, always make it as big as you can afford!!! Also, make a small area that is sectioned off and able to be kept reasonably clean for your medicines, clean supplies, things of this nature. If you can, keep a little fridge if you need to have meds that have to be refrigerated. Will save you many many steps. Ours is 30x30 and we should have went bigger, but ended up having to build in the pasture because our land was so uneven in the place we really wanted it and didn't have time to level it or the equipment. . .and it all turned out ok, but we are still going to have to build another bigger shed in the original spot because of lack of space. I just have Alpacas, but plan on adding goats just for pets. . .and chickens, but they will be across the yard and not close to the animals because of cross contamination.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Not always Pat. My friend's insurance agency accepted a layer of sheet rock between the barn area and storage area. They put it up themselves and it was not expensive.

 

[TajMahalChickens]

For horses electric tape fencing has proven a far better perimeter fence than plain field fencing or wire strands whether high tensile or barbwire on our place.

Ok, newbie at fence types. Is this what you call field fencing?

and this is Electric tape?

As far as hay, it seems like it may or may not be expensive to make the hay building attached to the barn. Would it be best to make it a separate building? I was just hoping that by making is an adjacent room I wouldn't have to walk through rain or snow to get to the hay.

Also, make a small area that is sectioned off and able to be kept reasonably clean for your medicines, clean supplies, things of this nature.

Yes, we are planning to have a tack room for all the horse tack, as well as a fridge. We also would like a sink in that room, debating on whether or not to have hot water. Any suggestions as to a sink/hot water in the tack room?

Put all wiring in conduit, absolutely! You'd be amazed how many barns I see done in Romex!

Good point! We'll be doing that!

As far as concrete or dirt: I've heard that concrete is cold on the horses feet in the winter, it is slippery (as most of you said), and it is more expensive. So I am leaning toward a dirt floor, but I hate the dust. What about doing dirt then putting interlocking rubber mats in the stalls and aisle? That way we could sweep it, it isn't cold in the winter, it has good traction, and it isn't dusty. I guess it would be pretty expensive, but not as expensive as concrete.

Here is a sample pic of a mat that we could use for the floor.​

 

[welsummerchicks]

We have mats on the concrete aisle and in the stalls. The stalls have large rock underneath limestone screenings; I wish I had put more rock under(any where you want to stay level or not develop uneven spots, you basically do what people do when they build a road - put down big rock like #57 and then put something smaller and more compactable, like limestone screenings on top of it). The stall floors, because I did not put a thick enough layer of rock under the limestone screenings, developed depressions where the bigger horses stand and every few months, I lift up a mat and even out the limestone screenings under the mats.

I would recommend you plan on putting down rock as a foundation where your paddocks will be and topping that rock with limestone screenings. You might consider doing same in loafing areas of paddocks, such as around gates. Some counties recommend textile fabrics to stabilize the stone and screenings; around here, textile seems to get clogged with silt and fine clay relatively quickly and causes problems. But I have seen some of the 'geogrids' (looks like black pastic honeycomb)around gates and loafing areas to stabilize the limestone screenings, and it can be very, very effective.

In most areas of the midwest, you are advised to create 'sacrifice areas'. These areas can be used when the pasture is wet and horses out in the pasture would pock mark it with deep hoof prints, which leads to frozen holes that horses hurt themselves on in winter, and at other times, mud, and injuries, thrush, mud fever, more insects that bother you and your horses, erosion and bad quality runoff that...ah...runs off onto your neighor's property.

It's very, very hard to correct ruts and deep hoof prints, so it's best to not get them started forming. Soil under grass gets compacted so that the holes from the horse's feet can be like concrete when it's dry and a cess pond when it's wet. You often have to bring in farm equipment to get the holes fixed and then you have to reseed your pasture. It's a lot better if they don't form in the first place.

Sacrifice areas can be your paddocks. That's where the horses are turned out when conditions aren't right for them to be grazing in a pasture.

Many people think that if they have their own place, their horses can 'be turned out all the time'. In fact, if you're taking care of the land, you soon find out that it doesn't work out too well to overgraze, or to use the pastures when conditions are bad.

Pastures get degraded and runoff quality gets very bad, if you overgraze your grass areas so they become bare, this happens too. Weeds and woody shrubs start taking over, the ground gets compacted and rutted, and the land becomes more and more costly to maintain and still get a good quality grazing area for your horses.

I'd suggest having as sturdy a perimeter fence as you can afford, and then a lighter duty fence can be used to divide the area up into separate areas - some people even use step-in plastic posts that are portable, so they can keep changing the areas and adjusting so it all gets grazed evenly but no one area gets over-grazed.

When you have your grass areas divided up, you can keep moving your horses about every two weeks during the growing season. This way you keep the grass short, but not too short. The right amount of grazing prevents mud and runoff problems and means you do not have to reseed frequently. Pasture mix seed is expensive.

Another suggestion - don't assume all your horses can have unlimited grazing. Horses that have foundered, overweight horses, horses of certain breeds especially.

All horses CAN founder but it is especially a problem with Morgans, many of the English 'moor and mountain' pony breeds, and any breeds using their blood, including Miniature horses - and don't forget donkeys and mini donkeys which are often allowed to get terribly obese. It is quite risky to give them unlimited pasture time. It's often quite a battle to keep horses exercised and slim when they're kept at home. Owners often find time spent maintaining the property leaves them less time for riding. So many horses are quite overweight which can cause serious problems. Our modern pasture mixes are geared toward very quick weight gain of livestock and are very high in sugar during certain growth stages, especially when they really grow quickly in spring.

You quite often have to keep your horses in your sacrifice area in spring when the grass is really 'flushing'. Other times to be cautious are after fertilizing and liming as this too can cause a very sudden flush of growth. Some breeding farms now keep their stock off fertilized pastures for two weeks, but it can take longer for the grass growth to slow down.

Be sure you lay out your ground plan so that you can keep your horses in your sacrifice area when 'the pasture is closed'.

That's all I can think of for now!

 

[Akane]

I never ever want to deal with dirt floors again. Ever. That was a complete nightmare. Our new barn we did compressed limestone but after several years it still gets dips and grooves in it from pawing or urinating in the same spot constantly. Consider stall skins. They were initially designed from a semi permeable fabric used underneath roadways. Generally they are installed over sand with a trench of gravel in the middle to help drain excess moisture down in to the ground or out the back of the building. We put one in our foaling stalls many years ago and after some rather destructive horses tearing at it the stall skin is still completely intact. You do occasionally have to puncture it with a pitchfork or similar after it gets older because dirt will get ground down in and block of some of the draining ability but even if you don't it still allows more moisture through than solid stall mats. It's also very cheap in comparison and can be installed over any surface since you generally put a few inches of sand under it providing the cushion while the stall skin protects the surface from being dug out or ingested. It all stays level with no major base layer or filling in gaps.

I love having a concrete aisle with nothing on it. Yes it can occasionally be slippery but unless you have livestock running in to the barn loose with ice packed in their feet or wet worn down metal shoes on it's not really an issue. It is great when you have the farrier out, want to check a horse for lameness, need a level surface for soaking legs, helps cool the building, and unless very poorly designed always gives you a dry place to stand. If I had the money I would do concrete stalls with drainage trenches and cushion by mats or sand and stall skins but really it has little benefit over any other flooring since you still need to put something on top of it. Unless you have other future plans for the building or just want it to stand forever you might as well cover a cheaper flooring material to protect it instead of covering concrete to protect the animal. I still would pour at least a concrete pad for various uses even if I couldn't afford to do the entire aisle.

Our pastures are designed with one central square pasture that they are locked in over winter, during bad weather, and when new grass is growing. This pasture gets overgrazed by late spring. By then though the other 3 pastures have grown good mature grass. 2 pastures border on the main pasture with the 3rd side being the arena and the 4th side the barn. The 2nd largest pasture has another pasture coming off it at a 90 degree angle. So we open the 3 pastures in order as things get grazed down and close them back up in order when it starts to snow with a little backup pasture on the other side of the central one. Having all the pastures come off a main area where grass is not expected to grow would work better since you could use each one individually but the layout of the land did not come out that way.

We use horse guard fencing http://www.horseguardfence.com/index.php. I tested their newer bipolar fencing but was not impressed. I would only use it in areas where grounding is difficult or for something temporary.

 

[patandchickens]

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You gotta talk with your insurance agent. See how much difference it makes.

For sure the *safest* thing is to have the hay in a separate building. It is also more of a nuisance, especially if you have lotsa rain or long winters or do not wish to spend money to actually *pave* (not just gravel) the path between the buildings in a rainy climate.

Personally, I feel that attached ground-level hay storage is the best, UNLESS you have animals that are stalled (or cooped) in the building for a significant portion of the day on most days in which case separate storage is definitely *safer* and it becomes a personal decision how you wish to trade off between safety, expense, and convenience.

we are planning to have a tack room for all the horse tack, as well as a fridge. We also would like a sink in that room, debating on whether or not to have hot water. Any suggestions as to a sink/hot water in the tack room?

If you can afford a small safe on-demand water heater it is awfully nice to have. For just a few animals (as opposed to a big training/boarding barn) you don't want a hot water heater with a *tank*, as it is a giant money-waster. You will seldom use hot water (well anyhow, seldom NEED it)... but when you do, you will be EVER so glad to not have to schlep it out from the house in a bucket! OTOH, it is extremely easy to survive with the bucket-from-house method, so I would not suggest that a hot water heater be any sort of *priority*.

Honestly I would argue against a fridge in the barn, again unless you are running a big training/boarding operation. It is a gratuitous waste of electricity. You can much more efficiently keep medications, ice packs and beer cold in your HOUSE fridge, bringing them out as needed. And "even if you can afford the electric bill, that is *my* (and everyone else's) electricity you're wasting there buster", you know

If you DO nonetheless decide to go the fridge-and-or-freezer route, put something in there that'll let you know when you've had a power outage, as you don't want to be unaware of your vaccines/medicines/whatever heating up beyond their store-safely temperature. Honestly I think it would be foolish to go with a fridge. Ignore all those Cherry Hill horsekeeping books -- that is by no means necessary or even *sensible* for the vast majority of real-world people.

As far as concrete or dirt: I've heard that concrete is cold on the horses feet in the winter, it is slippery (as most of you said), and it is more expensive. So I am leaning toward a dirt floor, but I hate the dust. What about doing dirt then putting interlocking rubber mats in the stalls and aisle? That way we could sweep it, it isn't cold in the winter, it has good traction, and it isn't dusty. I guess it would be pretty expensive, but not as expensive as concrete.

If you are going to put mats down, I would highly recommend putting them on concrete if you can afford it and are pouring other slab anyhow (as you should be for the tackroom, and probably will be for a coop also if you are still going to have the chcikens in the barn). Otherwise, even if you do it as best as possible (which starts to get pricey again, and approach the cost of slab) and put down a good hard-compacted layer of gravel and stone dust under the mats, it WILL start to get lumpy and shift over time, also if you develop any sort of mouse/rat problem (common in barns) that can further accellerate the unflattening of your aisle. So while you CAN put mats on compacted stonedust aisles (not just plain dirt), it is not the ideal situation.

An all-matted aisle is a pretty good setup, btw, if you can afford it. As a second-place choice, personally I'd pick a textured concrete slab aisle with mats in your crosstie area. (And then actually USE that area when you are going to work on the horse, even if not cross-tying -- the biggest unavoidable hazard with concrete aisles, IME, is when a horse spooks or slips while you (or vet/farrier) are working on it, because of the basic hardness and poor traction of even well-textured concrete. So planting the horse on MATS while doing anything that might lead to unusual events is a real good idea, on concrete). Unless you are going to be letting the horses walk in/out unattended in which case I would unhesitatingly vote for a very well-engineered hard-tamped stonedust aisle (which is higher maintenance and will need redoing every 'so many' years)

In the stalls, you for sure do not want plain concrete if it can in ANY way be avoided. You can use mats but bear in mind they only make the concrete safer, not absorbant nor meaningfully cushioned, so you still need to use as much bedding as you normally would (contrary to what mat manufacturers used to claim in ads). A really really nice surface for the horse is rubber-crumb mattress flooring for the stalls -- such as SoftStall and now a bunch of other mfrs' names -- it is GREAT for the horses, and really DOES allow using less bedding (just enough to absorb pee), however be aware it often doesn't last nearly as long as mats and of course is more expensive to start with. Still, from a horse standpoint it is da bomb.

Really though a tamped-screenings stall floor is not bad, and certainly much cheaper than any other option. Tamp the bejeebers out of it, with a little stonedust mixed into the top layer and moistened, til you can't easily scratch it with a manure fork - otherwise holes form too fast. It will have to be redone (holes and low spots dug back a little, filled and retamped) every few years at least, unless your horses are seldom ever in their stalls.

On some soils, you can get away with just tamped native dirt as a stall base for infrequently-used stalls... but if you're going to stall the horses at night, or if they will be stalled only for a meal but one of them tends to pee when brought in and/or paw, the vast majority of soils will quickly turn into a holey and/or mucky mess. So I really can't recommend a true "dirt" floor in most cases, even though I ahve certainly seen particular circumstances where it happens to work fine.

Paddocks: to build on the very good suggestions of welsummerchicks and Akane above, IMO the very very best possible paddock layout is to have an all weather sacrifice paddock (that is, it's been heavily engineered for good drainage, probably with inorganic footing but ideally *not* sand) as the thing the barn or run-in shed connect directly to; and then have grazing paddocks/pastures radiate outwards from that. There will be times of year when the horses should not be on the pastures (most notably, in extremely muddy/mucky conditions, or in severe ice, or if there are laminitis-risk concerns) and besides the area near the barn/shed will get severely thrashed *anyhow* even if you have no means to confine the horses there, so you may as well make the best of both problems and create a properly-engineered sturdily-fenced sacrifice area around the barn/shed to begin with

Whether to have grazing-pasture access thru multiple gates, or through one gate into an airlock or lane area, depends on your likely horse management style; in some situations one is clearly better, in some the other.

Pat​