Bunny Doe picking up her babies and throwing them??

[Egg-cation House]

Our Doe's kits are 3.5 weeks old and we are watching them fairly closely. She (Cashmere) hasn't taken to mothering well, and we have battled poopy bums, clogged scent glands and losing weight - that was after trying to encourage her to nurse them (she hadn't as of day 2 of their lives). There were 3 kits the night she kindled, but one did not survive. We have tried Kitten Milk replacement (with colostrum) and also given Benebac. One of the babies is considerably smaller than the other (Corduroy) and refuses the KMR. Tonight I tried powdered goats milk, and actually got 1 ml in the bun (compared to a drop or 2 at best of KMR) The larger baby (Caramel) doesn't like either KMR or goat's milk, but does like the Benebac (which Corduroy refuses). We have given warm water baths a few times over the last several days because of foul green poo/pee soaking their abdomens, and they have been dried off and returned to the hutch with Momma. Tonight after baths, she was throwing them around - grabbing them with her mouth by their fur and tossing them about the hutch. I can't find any information on why she is doing this.

We have kept chickens for years, and have seen a lot of interesting animal behaviors, but we have had bunnies for 1.5 years and they are totally different in the "odd behavior" category.

Does anyone have experience with any of our problems? Are the babies safe? It seemed to start off as a grooming check and then got a little more forceful by her.

Recap - Corduroy has gone from 4.87oz on 8/29, to 7.05 on 9/5, and 6.35 tonight.
Caramel has gone from 5.92oz on 8/29, to 8.82 on 9/5, and 11.6 tonight.

We started tracking their weights about 3x a day from 8/25 until now, as they didn't look like she was nursing and we wanted some measure of "growth". I realize that weights can fluctuate throughout the course of a day, so I give weekly weigh-ins to be representative. Corduroy has been on a decline trend since 9/8, from a high of 8.47 on 9/7.

 

[Zoomie]

I really don't know, it can be hard to guess... but... maybe the doe does not like the way they smell and is trying to expel them. Normally the mother nurses them, and so they will smell like her, because her milk is going through them. Maybe she does not trust that they are hers, because of the baths and the feeding they are getting.

A couple of times, I got a doe to accept another doe's kits by getting one of the fostering mother's kits to pee on the newcomers. That made them smell like the rest of the litter. In this case you don't have a kit to do this with... I know it sounds gross, but maybe take some of the doe's droppings, or pee if you can get it (not so easy with a grown rabbit!) and put it on the kits. But hey it's cheap to try.

 

[Egg-cation House]

I know it sounds gross, but maybe take some of the doe's droppings, or pee if you can get it (not so easy with a grown rabbit!) and put it on the kits. But hey it's cheap to try.

I will see how she does with them today. We aren't sure that she actually has nursed them much. When they have tried while we are awake (since birth), she would jump away :/ Last night I boarded her off from them, just to keep them safe while we weren't around to monitor, and she seems to be behaving this morning. Usually their baths are just warm water to break up the fur clumps on their bellies/tails, sometimes I use a dot of Baby Magic, but they definitely still smell a bit like urine overall.

This morning, Caramel has been happily drinking from the water bottle in their cage, but they both have lost weight since last night - I try not to worry about it in the mornings, though, because they could have peed/pooped after weigh-in last night. Caramel definitely has a pee covered tummy again. I won't intervene with baths again today and see how that goes.

 

[balloonflower]

I have been raising for less than a year, so have limited advice. Do you know if doe's milk came in, and is she nice enough for you to try and force nurse the kits by flipping her in your lap and holding the kits to a nipple?

I have done this with a runty kit or two when growth hasn't happened, but my doe allows it too. It's amazing the growth that can occur from one good feed.

 

[Higher Ground Rabbitry]

It sounds like you're doing awesome with supplemental feed if they've made it to 3.5 weeks! They will probably start nibbling on pellets, hay, and greens soon, if they haven't already. I would make sure they have some available that they can reach easily. So if they can just hang in there a little longer, you should turn a corner soon. Less milk and an early reliance on solid food could mess with their gut, though, so I would keep plenty of hay available for them to keep their stomachs moving properly.

If you are worried about the smell, you can put a dab of vanilla on the doe's nose. That way she can't smell anything but vanilla, so she can't tell if the kits smell strange or not.

I've had does that didn't clean their first litter or two, and a doe that never fed her kits, but I've never tried milk replacement because I heard it had a low success rate. I wish I could help you more with behavior, but you seem to be doing something right on feeding!

 

[cassie]

I am no expert, but I do have a couple suggestions. I have used undiluted evaporated milk to feed a number of different babies of different species who require a rich milk. In my limited experience I find that both puppies and kittens prefer the evap to KMR. Never tried feeding baby rabbits though. If you think the scent of the babies is an issue, put a little Vicks Vaporub (sp) on the mother's nose and a little on the kits themselves. As for the doe, I might breed her once more and if her mothering skills did not increase a lot, she would either be designated as a pet or dinner (mine). Or I would just skip rebreeding her and go directly to option two (pet or dinner).

 

[Egg-cation House]

I have been raising for less than a year, so have limited advice. Do you know if doe's milk came in, and is she nice enough for you to try and force nurse the kits by flipping her in your lap and holding the kits to a nipple?

I have done this with a runty kit or two when growth hasn't happened, but my doe allows it too. It's amazing the growth that can occur from one good feed.

We did force nurse with them for the first week, she was not at all compliant with the process! It was quite a process, and it took 2 to hold her/pet her head and a third to hold/catch flying kits when she would thrash about - in the end I decided that we were stressing her out more than helping, and stressed Momma's don't make milk. We switched our approach to one of "pamper her with nice milk-producing food, so she has enjoyed warm oatmeal (old fashioned oats mixed with warm tap water) and red clover. We have not seen her let the babies latch for more than a second, for the entire time we've had them. The runty one, in particular, seems to have/had a poor latch, and she would kick when he tried.

It sounds like you're doing awesome with supplemental feed if they've made it to 3.5 weeks! They will probably start nibbling on pellets, hay, and greens soon, if they haven't already. I would make sure they have some available that they can reach easily. So if they can just hang in there a little longer, you should turn a corner soon.

I've had does that didn't clean their first litter or two, and a doe that never fed her kits, but I've never tried milk replacement because I heard it had a low success rate. I wish I could help you more with behavior, but you seem to be doing something right on feeding!

Thanks for the encouragement! We guessed that something must be going right enough for them to make it this far, it's when it doesn't feel like it's making a difference (slow gains, losses). When we decided to intervene with the KMR, it was a gamble based on my research, but they have taken so little of it in, I fear less for the warnings that we were delaying the inevitable. Over the course, I have gotten maybe a combined tablespoon into the kits, so they are getting some of their nutrition from the Cecum/pellets/Timothy hay in the hutch!

I am no expert, but I do have a couple suggestions. I have used undiluted evaporated milk to feed a number of different babies of different species who require a rich milk. In my limited experience I find that both puppies and kittens prefer the evap to KMR. Never tried feeding baby rabbits though.

As for the doe, I might breed her once more and if her mothering skills did not increase a lot, she would either be designated as a pet or dinner (mine). Or I would just skip rebreeding her and go directly to option two (pet or dinner).

We switched to trying the goat's milk (powdered Myenburg, reconstituted a little rich) because they were not wanting the KMR at all, but from my searching of substitutes, cow milk was not a good option for the bunny kits - they take in so little at a time and it is just not rich enough, plus cow's milk protein is very hard for them to digest. Corduroy has now taken 3 good feedings of the goat's milk - willingly! I don't even need to swaddle in a towel to keep the bun steady, so that's a HUGE improvement over when we were trying the KMR and even swaddled would have turning heads, kicking out of the swaddle and ducking down in to the towel.

Thanks all for the encouragement, and we may try the vanilla trick on Cashmere if we have to bathe them again, smelly little furballs again this morning

 

[Egg-cation House]

A very sad update on our baby bunny, Corduroy. It's been about 36 hours since my last reply :'( At tonight's evening weight check, I decided to give a quick rinse of his tummy (lots of pee on the fur) and he seemed very weak and thin as I started. I snuggled him up in a towel, and tried to offer milk, and then desperately some banana to perk him up, but he would not lick either - this morning he had been sipping from the waterer. There were a few coughs, followed by a scared look and Corduroy passed away, snuggled up with me and surrounded by our family, showered in pats and kisses.

We'll continue with weight checks on Caramel, but for tonight Cashmere (Mom) seems to be more snuggly to Caramel than we've seen her in all of their almost 4 weeks of life

The part of farming I dislike is losing these furry/feathery little friends, and the kiddos agree.

 

[Zoomie]

Oh, I am so sorry... that is so hard, especially after the long and difficult fight to save the little bunny. Hugs to you and your family.

 

[Bunnylady]

I'm sorry you lost Corduroy; your efforts to give him a chance sound nothing short of heroic! Sadly, what happened is often the case - just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel, they quit on you. I've taught many does their jobs and I breed them in sets so there's always someone to pick up the slack if a doe can't/won't do it, but I long ago gave up on trying to hand-raise kits. It's hard to be that ruthless, but I just can't keep enduring the headaches and heartaches just to lose 'em in the end.

Good luck with Caramel!