Can a Rough Coat collie Pup be Trained to Herd Chickens?

[cfrich]

My puppy is about 6 months old now. She can't be left loose with the chickens unattended because she pulls the tail feathers of her favorite hen. When we're out to supervise they do fine. She herds them around the yard, but I don't know how to train her to put them where I want them. I wish she would keep them out of the house, but if the backdoor is open she herds them toward it. I made the door into their coop a dutch-door so they can hop in and out, but the puppy can't get in.

 

[centrarchid]

If herding to be realized, then it should be done while supervised. If not herding, then dog needs to leave birds alone. Age still to young to leave dog unattended with birds. Delay unattended interactions for another year or so.

 

[lcr123]

My collie has been helping me "herd" our two hens for about 2 months. He is 5 1/2 months old now. I simplly let them out, tell him to "go get her" and then "bring her here" and he does. He nips at the air and anticipates which way they'll go and rounds them up. If I leave him unsupervised with them he chases them and I'm afraid will wear them out, so I don't. But this is a rough collie...I can leave him unsupervised with my cat, and he approaches gardeners with leaf blowers and the vet's office with the same goofy, tail wagging, hello friend attitude. He loves everybody. Not all dogs are as trustworthy.

 

[lcr123]

I agree. I did find a trainer in town who teaches dogs and their owners how to herd ducks, sheep and cattle. She conducts an instinct test when they are as young as 6 months but won't begin training them until 9 months to a year.

 

[rita123]

I have a German Shepherd, both parents form Germany and his mother's line is an active working herding line in Germany. Take your pup to a herding instructor for a herding instinct test first. Some dogs, especially Border Collies are being bred more for show and are actually losing the herding instinct. just like lcr123 stated, dogs should be about 9 months old before they're trained. Some dogs will latch on to sheep, others cattle etc.. My guy loves working sheep As far as my chickens go, he knows it's his job to keep an eye on my girls and round up any that stray too far away. They pretty much take themselves in at night, but one hen like to run back out and nose around, so he brings her in. Good luck!

 

[ArmstrongRanch]

Our collie was about 3 months old when we got him. I took him with me for farm chores every day. Our chickens have to be put back after a brief period of free-ranging, they have to be protected from predators, and they have to be kept on our small property without use of fence. The pup watched me do it and came along with me. I had treats for the pup, no leash - if the pup bothered the chickens I could call it off and reward it for coming. One day, I've no idea what age the pup was but I'd guess 5-6 months? a chicken was about 2 feet from the coop, where I was cleaning up, and the pup went to the other side of it and brought it into the coop for me, stopping at the gate and looking to me for what I thought of that accomplishment. I went out and had a major party with the pup at the coop gate, told him how WONDERFUL he was for bringing me that chicken, and that was an, AHA moment for the pup. From then on, he would bring me chickens. First from circling right next to the coop, then from farther and farther away. I added a stay and go get them so he would know when he was supposed to get them, a leave them so he'd know when to just lie around and watch them and let them eat, and then a where? go find them when it was a long outrun to get them. He checked out each bird of the flock individually to get to know their scent. When they hatch he gets to sniff them and learn who his birds are - and because the birds are all imprinted on the dog, I don't have problems with them being too frightened of him. Then we got ducks too, as hatching eggs, and now we have two separate flocks of ducks we've hatched, so he has to herd one bunch one place and another a different place and keep them separate so the drakes don't fight.

Chickens can be confusing and frustrating for a young dog to herd, if they scatter, or frightening if they flap their wings. My pup solved the chicken scatter problem by singling out a particular chicken, and bringing the chickens back one at a time - but that requires some pretty intense concentration by the dog, because even though the chickens scatter when the dog puts pressure on them, they will circle back to rejoin their flockmates rather than going where the dog is trying to take them. So he had to be able to stay right with them to prevent them doing that. I added a "look back" command, if the bird ducked back and he overran it so it wound up behind him - so he'd circle back and get it. If I wanted to get all the chickens at once I would go with the dog with a broom and help him out. I'd take one flank and the dog, the other. As he got better at that, I'd hang back - then he would be ahead of me, driving the stock himself. Then I'd hang out at the coop gate and send the dog to get them, and if all went well, he'd bring everything back to the coop. If anything was missing, I'd send him to go find it. If he went out to get them, but got stuck and couldn't get the stock to come - e.g., the ducks were hiding under the truck - he would come get me for help, I'd get them out with the broom and we'd bring them back together.

The ducks are easier to herd because they flock together better instead of scattering, unless the dog is way too close and bursts the "pressure bubble" (if your ducks are running flapping their wings the dog is too close, putting too much pressure on them). If the dog gets confused or frustrated and quits trying to herd chickens, it might learn better on ducks. However you have to be careful about which ducks: anything bigger than a light breed duck, may be excessively aggressive toward the dog, especially during mating season - you could find a drake herding your dog or dangling from its ruff. And you have to protect female laying ducks or hens from a pup trying to play with them or pounce on them: a broken egg inside could mean a dead duck. I've heard geese herd beautifully. Mid-to-large breed ducks may be too aggressive, particularly drakes with hens in breeding season. Herding trainers use ALL drakes - they may not flock as well but there's no risk of broken eggs. However, the dog may have to be more aggressive to move the drakes - and you may not want your dog to learn that if you are herding female laying ducks or ducklings. I like having the duck eggs to feed my dog and he is gentle enough not to hurt his ducks, and he can adjust gentle enough even for baby stock. The level of aggression of the dog is as peculiar to the dog, as the level of aggression of the stock, is to the particular stock. For it to work, the dog has to not hurt the stock and the stock not hurt the dog. Yet the dog must possess enough "power" to move the stock.

Usually herding trainers prefer to start on sheep, unless the dog is too timid to herd sheep. Generally the larger something is and the faster it moves, the more interesting it is to a rough collie to chase. (Don't try herding horses though, they can really injure or kill a dog.) The chase becomes herding when the dog becomes obedient to the handler's commands, to wait, to get around, to walk up, to get out, all of which can be taught on leash, though I didn't. The dog needs to find the "balance point" - the distance away from the stock at which the dog applies enough pressure to move the stock, but not so much pressure the stock panics or scatters. My dog experimented and found the balance point on his own, and he also independently "teaches" each new group of ducklings or chicks to herd as they grow up, starting with moving them just a few feet and working up to moving them where they need to go as they get able to go further. Then the dog is able to move the stock in a controlled fashion. If the dog comes too close, and panics the stock, the handler needs to get between the dog and the stock and encourage the dog to move farther out. If the dog is too far away to move the stock, the handler needs to encourage the dog to go closer to the stock until it moves. If the dog has no clue, the handler has to move the stock herself and the dog observes and hopefully becomes interested in participating in the movement. Then the dog can move the stock in balance, with control. And all that remains is for the handler to communicate clearly with the dog, WHERE the dog is to take the stock... An advanced herding dog needs the "come by" and "away", which direct the dog which way to turn to move the stock a precise direction.

The two most important things about herding, I think, are 1) to protect the stock from the dog, and 2) to protect the dog from the stock. If the handler does these two things, the stock will gain confidence in their dog, and the dog will gain confidence in the handler. As a herding handler, you need to learn how to read the dog and the stock. Natural instinct is prerequisite to herding. A dog with instinct will naturally attempt to gather the stock to the handler. If the dog does not try to bring stock to the handler, if it shows no interest in moving the stock, it probably will not become a good herder. Also as a handler, you must have PATIENCE. It takes time, and if the handler should lose their temper, the dog is likely to quit herding. Herding instruction is a great idea if you can find it, can afford it, and it is suitable for your dog. I am currently struggling with who to go to for herding instruction. I don't know any herding instructors who specialize in ROUGH COLLIES. Many teach border collies. Many teach Australian Shepherds. Some teach Shelties and Corgis. Specialists abound for German Shepherds. Rough collies are amazing with what they can do, if they have instinct to do it, but I don't know a single local trainer who specializes in ROUGH COLLIES. There are ranches in Montana that use rough collies for herding, but none I know of local to where I live. There's a boarding place in PA where you can stay for herding bootcamp for a week - I have yet to try that. Instruction is the obvious thing to get to improve. I sent my dog out for about a week's herding training in a neighboring state, and when he came back, it took me a week to get him back to as useful as he had been previously here. The trainer's stock was lighter, she had worked hard to get the dog farther out, and when he returned, my stock was heavier, and he couldn't move stock he had moved since he was a pup - he was too far away as he'd been recently taught. Also, I didn't know what the trainer had done or how she had done it, since I didn't see what was done. It's best, if you need to herd at home, to take the lessons with your dog so that you can learn how to teach your dog to herd. The trainer also had me bring my stock, when I told her the dog couldn't herd his own stock when he came home. Herding a lot of different stock is necessary for the dog to learn to find the balance point on different stock.

Rough collies have a completely different herding style than border collies. Where a border collie crouches and threatens stock with a strong direct intimidating glare, "YOU MOVE OR I EAT YOU" the rough collie approaches upright, loose eyed and invites the stock to go, "COME WITH ME AND I WILL PROTECT YOU." The rough collie is capable of independent herding work out of sight of the handler, but that is advanced and requires time to get there - leaving a pup unsupervised with stock, you might get away with, if your pup is gentle enough, or you might find a bird de-feathered and in shock or worse...

Professional herding training can be a thousand dollars of training expense or more - but if you learn how to do it and your dog loves to do it, there is no price tag on the wonderful improvement in relationship you will enjoy with your dog, how much safer your stock will be, and how happy your dog will be to be able to serve you and have a purposeful life. The trainer needs to read the dog well, to train correctly for the herding style and personality of the individual dog. The wrong trainer can cause the dog to quit or become aggressive toward stock. The right trainer can work miracles with a dog, especially a timid dog that may not initially seem to have much instinct. A former collie I had I started with the instinct test, as at that time I did not own herding stock. The pup - 7 months old, I think - seemed to be failing the instinct test, showing no interest in the sheep. The trainer rolled the sheep over on its back and had me bring the dog up and let it sniff the sheep's belly, and then had me goose the sheep to get it moving, and a couple years later the mature dog passed the HCT (AHBA) on sheep, with me handling, after a couple clinics with this trainer. You can bumble along yourself and read your stock and your dog and gradually get as far as you can - but if you get stuck at any point, or don't know where to begin, you need to find professional help and keep looking until you like the help that you've found. Clinics are a great way to learn a lot and you can learn from other people and other dogs also. Instinct testing is not essential as a starting point. If the dog has instinct, it will move stock at home. If it doesn't, it won't. My current dog was already herding long before I took it for a herding lesson or an instinct test - every trainer I have taken him to has said he has A LOT of instinct. I did have some experience from the clinics and lessons I went to with my previous dog, but each dog is different. The good thing about an instinct test is you have an experienced judge or handler working with your dog, but, that can be good or bad depending on the person and the dog. If you find a trainer who works well with you and your dog improves, go for it! If it doesn't work, keep looking.

Best of luck with your pup!

 

[lcr123]

Armstrong Ranch, thank you very much for your very informative, generous reply! My collie is now 20 months old, full grown, and the chickens...and subsequent chickens...sadly met their end by stray dog (saw it happen), complaining neighbors (had to give the rooster away) and, I think, racoons (left the coop open by mistake at dusk, ignored the collie's frantic barking, and awoke to feathers, broken eggs inside the coop, places our dog couldn't have fit). He is now obedience trained (Canine Good Citizen) and loves everyone (except gophers, which he kills, although he spared the possum baby when it played dead and simply brought it in and dropped it obediently at our feet). I'm still interested in seeing how he'd do with herding. The local sheep/cattle/duck herding trainer instinct tested him at 4 months and didn't see any instinct, but said to try again when he was older, so it is on my to do list. We live in southern California and rough collies are very rare here, I get so many compliments on him because of his rarity as much as his looks! It's a shame I had himneutered. Thank you again for your very helpful reply!

 

[ArmstrongRanch]

Congratulations on your dog's CGC! Well done. I'd think he's got herding instinct, and flock protection instinct, from what you've written. Herding instinct is derived from prey drive. A dog that will kill a woodchuck has prey drive. Probably your dog would not be a threat to his stock: he's sweet enough to pass the CGC, he's soft mouthed enough to bring you a live baby opossum, and he proved he was fowl-safe with the chickens you previously owned, assuming that he could be off-leash with them and there were no issues. The same instinct/ drive that helps him adjust to how to handle a nasty chuck vs. a helpless babe is the same drive that will help him adjust to a variety of stock in herding situations. The instinct that causes him to bring the opossum to you, is the instinct that will drive him to gather live stock to you. He may just need to have "permission" to leave you to herd the stock, to show his instinct. Some dogs require larger numbers of stock than are used at instinct tests to show interest, in which case a herding lesson or clinic may be a better starting place than a standard instinct test. Others are intimidated by large numbers of stock but work well with fewer. Lack of interest as such a young pup could just have been a passing fear-phase - hence the trainer's recommendation to try again later. Or it could have been stubborn stock - a young pup is no match for a dogged stamping ram. With a very sensitive collie, stepping on the dragging rope can stop them completely - so if possible, don't let the rope drag on the ground and avoid any jerking on it, which the dog will view as punishment. All my pup's first exposures to stock, were off leash, and on call... If the dog is known stock-safe and has a recall off stock, there is no need for the rope, it will only be a potential hindrance stopping the dog. The rope is "insurance" to step on to stop an aggressive dog with high prey drive and no recall from attacking and injuring stock - standard attire for trainers, who are not accustomed to working with the rough collie, and are accustomed to working with breeds that do need that rope or they lose their stock. Your dog is now old enough to be well beyond any puppy fear period and anytime now would be fine for that re-try. Another option if available is to experiment with instinct testing on a variety of stock and find out which stock interests the dog the most. Perhaps sheep are exciting, perhaps ducks. Start with stock that interests the dog most. Different stock - different sheep or duck breeds or individuals within the breeds - may react differently to the dog, and the dog may respond differently to different breeds or individual stock. Go with what is interesting to the dog. Heat is a consideration: avoid instinct testing or herding in excessive heat. A hot collie - especially a beloved house dog that lives in air conditioning as my dog does - is going to lie in the shade if there is any available, and ducks overheat, lie down and refuse to budge in excessive heat, also. Shade, misting fans, kiddie pools, lawn sprinklers, can help keep ducks and dog cool enough to herd in the heat, or timing it for the coolest part of the day may help. The brisker the weather, the better. If you want to herd at home, and the dog is interested in herding ducks, drakes are quiet enough they should not upset your neighbors. Duck hens might be too noisy, although they are not quite as loud as roosters. Light breed drakes may also afford chicken hens some additional predator protection, although they are no match for coyote and no substitute for a closed coop door. The collie is the best predator protection - but has to have access to provide it. My collie was shut in his yard when the fox came for my chickens in broad daylight. I let him loose and he chased the fox away, saving two of the seven hens...

Best of luck with a wonderful dog!!!

 

[lcr123]

Thank you again, Armstrong Ranch! You've encouraged me to try my dog at what sounds like a really fun sport and a great "job" for him, and it's nice to meet someone who knows and loves rough collies! You summed up his personality well. Unfortunately, our summers are hot here in inland San Diego county, so I'll take your advice and aim for early morning or evening tests/classes.